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#12294 - 12/29/05 05:41 PM Re: Adam, Eve and Me
Justine Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/07/05
Posts: 191
Pantheism vs. Panentheism

what's your preference?

http://www.webwyte.com/alan/pan.htm
_________________________
~Justine~

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#12295 - 12/29/05 09:57 PM Re: Adam, Eve and Me
Blacknad Offline
Superstar

Registered: 10/05/05
Posts: 901
Loc: Coventry, England
So why wouldn't an Ancient Mind do the same thing? Split itself into a billion perspectives and work out harmony between these perspectives as a great puzzle a great game. The origin of life was merely setting up the game board within the Ancient Mind itself.

Justine, do you really believe this?

Regards,

Blacknad.

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#12296 - 01/03/06 03:48 PM Re: Adam, Eve and Me
Justine Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/07/05
Posts: 191
Mostly, I'm in a very vulnerable, flexible, open minded, undecided place as far as my beliefs go. I haven't found a box to keep myself in.
Even atheists are more protected than me. Certainty is safe.
_________________________
~Justine~

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#12297 - 01/03/06 06:39 PM Re: Adam, Eve and Me
Justine Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/07/05
Posts: 191
This concept that I've been exploring looks as though it leads to Pantheism vs. Panentheism. I think I like Panentheism better as far as integrating it into a working belief system for myself. Appears to be akin to my train of thought and then some. I'm going to read up on it and see how it fits.


www.websyte.com/alan/process.htm
_________________________
~Justine~

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#12298 - 01/05/06 02:37 PM Re: Adam, Eve and Me
Justine Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/07/05
Posts: 191
Panentheism leads to Process Philosophy. Looks like I have a lot of reading ahead of me. This has been a journey for me on this forum. I never would have found Process Philosophy in the bookstore. The label is so drab. Quite a disguise. Thank you forum smile Thank you DKV and Blacknad smile
And mostly thanks to whoever posted the word Pantheism. I can't remember who that was and I can't remember if they said Panentheism instead, but it was the keyword I needed. Thanks to that person who self-disclosed. And thank you to Amaranth Rose and Kate for setting up this space and for keeping the origins discussions even though they stray from scientific material.
I've never been motivated to keep a journal, but through all this posting I really discovered some things for myself.
Not to mention being able to see that even the best minds struggle with uncertainty.
Thank you, Thank you

Peace,
_________________________
~Justine~

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#12299 - 01/05/06 09:32 PM Re: Adam, Eve and Me
soilguy Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/28/05
Posts: 414
Loc: North Carolina
Quote:
Originally posted by Justine:
Even atheists are more protected than me. Certainty is safe.
Justine: Atheists are not necessarily "certain." In fact, I would guess that most are not. An acquaintance of mine describes himself as a negative atheist, which he says is an atheist that just hasn't seen convincing evidence that a God exists. Then there are the more vocal positive atheists who have some certainty that a God doesn't exist.

I consider myself a pantheist (which many consider another word for atheist). Panentheism is attractive, too, but I have no personal experience that leads me to think that it must be true. With pantheism though, all you need to do is prove to yourself that things exist, that God is defined by "all that exists," and therefore, God exists.

OK, now that I've determined that God exists, I have the rest of my life to try and understand the nature of this God.
_________________________
When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross."
--S. Lewis

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#12300 - 01/06/06 03:38 PM Re: Adam, Eve and Me
Justine Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/07/05
Posts: 191
Oh Hi Soilguy,

I was starting to think I that I was just posting to myself smile

Your friend's negative atheism sounds a lot like " an atheist until proven otherwise" and that's the sense I get from many people who call themselves agnostic, even though the term really means, "one who is not committed to believing in either the existence or the nonexistence of God or a god." (subtle difference)

I have this book here I've for some reason barely started reading. Rediscovery of Awe Splendor, Mystery, and the Fluid Center of Life, by Kirk J. Schnieder, Ph.D. He's developed the term Enchanted Agnostic. I think many scientists are probably Enchanted Atheists ...I know the ones in my family are.

My fear in committing to Atheism....
If reality and existance were like a televison set, no matter how remarkable all the pieces of the mechanism were and how they work.....I'd hate to have missed the show.
You know what I mean?

Synchronicity, Serendipity, or even an "Ah Ha", momment......my only personal experiences with a Universal Awareness that have not been possibly dillusional.

I could see myself committing to Panentheism with synchronicity, serendipity, and "ah ha" momments being my momments of connection with that great mystery. On the other hand, I could view even those momments as a sort of misinterpretation or misunderstanding of reality.

I do believe in God in either a Pantheisitic or Panentheistic sense, I've gotten that far. smile I just can't committ to which one. (subtle diffence from agnostic non-committment) So I as you have determined that God exists, and have the rest of my life to try to understand the nature of this God. Thank you for letting me know that I am not alone smile
_________________________
~Justine~

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#12301 - 01/06/06 06:40 PM Re: Adam, Eve and Me
RM Offline
Superstar

Registered: 10/07/05
Posts: 560
Loc: London
These so called negative atheists are nothing but agnostics. A true atheist would arrive at the gates of heaven -or hell and say; "I must have gone insane or got amnesia whilst in a VR system."
Similarly, a true believer would look even the most overwhelming evidence that no god exists and see it as a 'test of faith.'

I myself am what I call a true-hedonistic-atheist, meaning I realise (or believe that) life and everything is merely a product of universal laws, and any meaning we find in it is ALSO a product of universal laws. Nonetheless -I enjoy the hell out of it! smile

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#12302 - 01/07/06 06:06 AM Re: Adam, Eve and Me
DA Morgan Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
Come on Rob ... a true atheist that arrived at the gates of heaven would do what every hypocrite wearing a cross, a star-of-david, or other emblem of faith would do ... consider the simple fact that an enternity of heaven would be no different from an eternity in hell.

Then they'd all set up a community somewhere in the middle and get down to a decent game of soccer.

You can't really believe that all of these prosletyzers are anything other than hypocrites. Put them in the Fred Hutchinson Cancer Research Center as patients and every one of them would be willing to sell his or her sould on eBay for a cure. Feel free to ask me how I know.

But it is good to see, from the above, you are a rational being. Better enjoy it now folks ... this is all there is.
_________________________
DA Morgan

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#12303 - 01/07/06 09:35 AM Re: Adam, Eve and Me
Anonymous
Unregistered


So why wouldn't an Ancient Mind do the same thing? Split itself into a billion perspectives and work out harmony between these perspectives as a great puzzle a great game. The origin of life was merely setting up the game board within the Ancient Mind itself.
REP: You are very close to the actual game. But unlike chess the rules are not hardcoded.The rules change.The universe is adaptive.It adapts to what your strength of belief.
Thats something which becomes obvious if start looking at ourselves as ordinary manifestation of laws embedded in nature.In one of the examples I had discussed about the Bird which evolved simple out of desire, no design doucments were shared between them.And then there was the game of Fire which is outside the game rule for most of the species.
The game which we are talking about has a definite purpose.It is a real manifestion of a hypothetical concept.It is like opening another move by extending the chessboard and inventing new pieces and defining new rules for them.
And Some old rules decay.

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#12304 - 01/07/06 10:25 PM Re: Adam, Eve and Me
DA Morgan Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
dvk wrote:
"the rules are not hardcoded" and "It adapts to what your strength of belief" and "The game which we are talking about has a definite purpose"?

And you know this how? The tooth fairy told you?
_________________________
DA Morgan

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#12305 - 01/08/06 04:59 PM Re: Adam, Eve and Me
RM Offline
Superstar

Registered: 10/07/05
Posts: 560
Loc: London
"Feel free to ask me how I know."

Ok, how do you know?

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#12306 - 01/09/06 04:00 AM Re: Adam, Eve and Me
DA Morgan Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
Spent 42 days in the Fred Hutchinson Cancer Research Center with my wife. 42 days as in 16+ hours a day. Met with many patients. Met with many family members. Still keep in contact with some as very strong bonds are built between people sharing the same foxhole.

Never met a single person, no matter how convinced they had been the day before in their religion, that wouldn't have sold their soul right there and then for a cure. Belief in a wonderful hereafter never survives the test of facing it for real except in the mentally challenged who were incapable of reasoned thought in the first place.

The same is true in war. And again I have just a little bit of personal experience. All people in combat know the very incoming round may have their name on it. They know, for sure, they may be no more than an instant away from finding out, first hand, whether their religion is fact or fiction.

And how many, in that situation, throw down their weapons and follow the advice of Jesus Christ, turn the other cheek, forgive their enemies, and stand-up as an act of religious conviction and let god take them if he wishes. Think of a very very small number.
_________________________
DA Morgan

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#12307 - 01/09/06 05:34 AM Re: Adam, Eve and Me
Anonymous
Unregistered


You have said so many things but you have not appreciated me once .. can I ask you why?
I offer solutions.

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#12308 - 01/09/06 09:31 AM Re: Adam, Eve and Me
Blacknad Offline
Superstar

Registered: 10/05/05
Posts: 901
Loc: Coventry, England
DA Morgan,

You speak out of ignorance so can hardly be blamed. Why would you get to hear about the 60,000 plus Christians martyred for their faith on an annual basis.

http://www.firstthings.com/onthesquare/?p=79

Based on eyewitness accounts of those who have fled the North Korean dictatorship, the stories curdle the blood. For instance, in the building of a highway near Pyongyang, a house was demolished and a Bible was discovered hidden between bricks. Along with it was a list identifying a Christian pastor, two assistant pastors, two elders, and 20 members of the congregation.


All were rounded up and the five Christian leaders were told they could avoid death if they denied their faith and swore to serve only Kim Jong Il and his father, Kim Il Sung, the founder of the communist dictatorship. Refusing to do so, they were forced to lie down and a steamroller used in the highway construction was driven over them. The report continues, ?Fellow parishioners who had been assembled to watch the execution cried, screamed out, or fainted when the skulls made a popping sound as they were crushed beneath the steamroller.?

Hardly stacks up with the following statement:

'Belief in a wonderful hereafter NEVER survives the test of facing it for real except in the mentally challenged who were incapable of reasoned thought in the first place.
'

As you are so fond of calling others to account when they make statements without reference, that cannot be supported, you may want to try avoiding it yourself.

Blacknad.

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#12309 - 01/09/06 12:48 PM Re: Adam, Eve and Me
RM Offline
Superstar

Registered: 10/07/05
Posts: 560
Loc: London
Some people, when they are un-happy - kill themselves, whether they believe in an afterlife or not. If these morons believed in an afterlife, that's all the more reason for them to choose to die.

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#12310 - 01/09/06 03:26 PM Re: Adam, Eve and Me
Justine Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/07/05
Posts: 191
I don't know about the hospital patients being testiments against faith. But, I do understand your point about people being willing to sell their soul for a cure.
It IS a testiment to love, though. Because the family members of the patients would equally have given anything to help alleviate the suffering of the people they love. It may be just as hard to watch someone you love suffer than it is to endure the physical suffering yourself.

Some of the situations I've endured I wouldn't wish on my worst enemey let alone someone I love, but I'm glad I suffered them because they give me character. I wouldn't trade them.

Suffering is one way of showing us who we really are. If our emotional strength wasn't tested by suffering, then we'd never know our true selves.
As in DA's example, in supporting someone through cancer. There are a lot of people who can't handle it. They wouldn't be able to go to the hospital. They wouldn't be able to meet and get to know anyone because the personal emotional pain would be too intense. But it's so worth it to show someone how much they are loved. So worth it to show yourself how much love you embody.

Some people never get to fall in love. Would those of us who have loved trade falling in love and the suffering we endure because of it for never having loved at all? Imagine your life ignorant of love... ignorance is a kind of bliss .... but that bliss is incomparable to the bittersweet emotional experience of love and suffering.

I guess love and suffering are our rewards for existing.

I guess the world of suffering could exist just so we can appreciate an eternity of peace. The meaning of life could simply be to endure suffering.

I like the idea of an eternal peaceful existance. To experience love without suffering and live with beauty.

With the idea of the Ancient Mind... It would have to create at least a small amount of suffering for each of us in order to experience peace, right? It wouldn't recognize peace without experiencing suffering first.
_________________________
~Justine~

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#12311 - 01/09/06 04:41 PM Re: Adam, Eve and Me
DA Morgan Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
I'll not debate love with you Justine because I agree so lets not change the subject.

The point I am making is simply that those that from the safety of their own beds proclaim their faith are hypocrites. They all lose their faith when confronted with reality.

BTW folks ... feel free to volunteer your time working in a cancer ward at a local hospital if you want to get find that place where theory is forced to come face-to-face with fact.
_________________________
DA Morgan

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#12312 - 01/10/06 01:11 PM Re: Adam, Eve and Me
RM Offline
Superstar

Registered: 10/07/05
Posts: 560
Loc: London
Justine,
Just so we're clear -do you believe in life after death?

In response to your post, the fact that people wouldn't 'turn back time' to undo their suffering is only because they have adapted to their new life. When you get the news that a family member or close friend has died, I doubt you will not-be wishing it hadn't happened. Perhaps in the future, when you have coped with the issue, you would wish not 'go back'. This is because going back would be the equivalent to suicide -you'd be erasing your life! Obviously no one would want to do that!

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#12313 - 01/10/06 02:19 PM Re: Adam, Eve and Me
Justine Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/07/05
Posts: 191
Rob, I haven't decided if I believe in life after death, yet, and am completely uncertain about almost everything related to the meaning of life, God, who we really are, etc. It's annoying and uncomfortable. And unfortunately, I'm addicted to thinking about these things.

I have experienced deaths of family members, three were at the end of long lives, and one was an early death and completely tragic. My heart broke. Two of those people I still miss and think about an awful lot.

In the case where the death was a real tragedy, I WOULD sacrifice erasing two years of my life in order to have that person back on Earth. Even though I learned about heart break I would give up that learning.

I guess there is a difference between my suffering and witnessing loved ones' suffering. You're right, I don't want to erase my own character development (but I would erase other's experience for them????). That's hypocritical isn't it? Hypocritical and paternalistic. Well, we know GOD or the powers that be do not erase suffering so I guess it or they experience the suffering, too. Imagine if we could rewind and erase our lives at our own whim. Would we ever get anywhere at all?

DA, most people close to death turn to God even more so at that moment. In fact, I think a lot of people forget about their faith UNTIL moments of trial. Not to mention, that when a loved one is suffering sometimes there's nothing else to do except pray. Lots of people pray because they want to help somehow but can't do anything else. I would guess that a great deal of people pray during great suffering and at the moments of their own death.

I understand the point you are trying to make but I don't think it works in the scenerio you describe. When times get tough people draw strength from their belief systems instead of giving them up.
Ok Ok... but here's a better scenerio for your point.
Let's say someone prays and prays to their God to save their loved one or to manipulate their reality somehow and then their God doesn't come through for them. They experience great loss...in those cases I can imagine people letting go of a faith they may have entertained when everything in their life was easy. Yeah, it works in that situation. Is that what you meant? I have to go back and read your post again.
It's not DURING the struggle. It's AFTER the struggle is lost and there's nothing left to do but grieve. We were let down and nothing made sense in the long run. That's when we loose our faith. Because it didn't come through for us and in the end we couldn't depend on it. Yep, you're right.

But, what about when prayer does work. Has that whole experiment been up for peer review. The one about prayer benefitting recovery in the medical setting?
_________________________
~Justine~

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