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#12174 09/14/05 07:56 AM
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It may sound beyond relevance of any scientific excercise but the truth as said in the Bible makes any such discussion in conflict with normaly accepted sceintific theory of evolution.
Why if he is so true says something which is not true?
So sad a religion gets rebuked for not being true to the reality.Reality as described by the Biology goes against Religion with total confidence in its undisputed correctness(it declares this to all its followers by subtly criticizing religion).
I think we should try to remove this apparent conflict with a good plausible sceintific theory assuming people who described what happened in past related their own real experience.
I assume founders of great religion were trying to relate to somthing which they really felt and which was subsequently felt by the followers.

Non Linear Evolution : What does it mean?
It means that we all someday suddenly become more aware. The Qunatum of understanding gained between the age of 16 years - 17 years (i.e 1 year)can suddenly cross the net understanding of 16 years. And it is quite possible from the defintion of TRUTH(which we discussed) to say that my world got created suddenly one day.
This explanation goes with religion and as well as with Science.Without saying who is wrong and why because it can not be proved as the defintion of truth itself has an inherent subjective attribute attached to it.
I do not want a noble prize for this but yes I would like to have genuine discussion.

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#12175 09/14/05 02:39 PM
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Maybe man expects too much from a creator. We bestow impossible abilities on this entity and when our expectations aren't met, we reject the possibility of a creator.

#12176 09/14/05 03:37 PM
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Quote:
but the truth as said in the Bible makes any such discussion in conflict with normaly accepted scientific theory of evolution.
Boot to the ehad. Religion is crap by definition - any empirical proof destroys faith.

http://www.restrooms.org/page03ar.html
http://www.cromwell-intl.com/toilet/
Those with the most gods have the worst toilets. Test of faith!


Uncle Al
http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/
(Toxic URL! Unsafe for children and most mammals)
http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/qz3.pdf
#12177 09/14/05 04:11 PM
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dvk wrote:
"So sad a religion gets rebuked for not being true to the reality"

Why is that sad? The history of our species is one of discarding old ideas that prove invalid and replacing them with ideas that are proven more correct.

We no longer treat infections with bleeding ... we use antibiotics. Take a good serious read on your authorless books and you will find 'god' praising acts that today we call genocide, torture, rape, and murder. What is possible relevance to human's living in 2005 of nonsense written more than 4,000 years ago? Of what possible relevance to human's is a god, or his son, that were so ignorant or cruel as to not reveal penicillin? How many hundreds of millions of innocent children have died painful deaths for that act of omission.

Should religion be rebuked for hypocritically proclaiming how precious life is while ignoring the fact that it has been responsible for a huge percentage of the acts of genocide? YES!


DA Morgan
#12178 09/15/05 03:50 AM
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Religion is crap by definition - any empirical proof destroys faith.
REP: Where is the empirical proof that God does not exist as I had discussed.
======================================
Maybe man expects too much from a creator. We bestow impossible abilities on this entity and when our expectations aren't met, we reject the possibility of a creator.
REP:Creator as I wrote relates one's own consciousness.Impossible abilities are found in humans so why do you doubt on the God?
=================================
We no longer treat infections with bleeding ... we use antibiotics.
REP: I am not denying the existence of Science.
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The explanation was purely sceintifc in its approach.

#12179 09/15/05 04:10 AM
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dvk: Asks:
"Where is the empirical proof that God does not exist as I had discussed."

I will provide it. If there is a god then whose definition of that god would you want used for the empirical proof? The god of the Orthodox, Conservative or Reform Jews? The god of the Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Luthern, Episcopalian, Mormon, Baptist, or Christian Scientist Christians?
Perhaps the god of Islam. Should we choose the Suni one? The Shiite one? Maybe the Alawite one?
Or perhaps we should be more respectful of the Hindu and Buddhist faiths and discuss not the one but the many. Or perhaps animists are correct and we should worship the sun, the moon, and the forests.

You tell me specifically WHICH god and I will provide you with the empirical proof.

dvk wrote: "Impossible abilities are found in humans"

This statement is utter and complete nonsense on its face. It demonstrates either an inability to think or an inability to write with clarity. An ability that exists can NOT be impossible.

And the fact that you with your limited intelligence, limited education, and limited understanding think something is impossible does not make it so. You don't understand Quantum Mechanics, neither does the pope, neither did the writers of any holy book of any religion. So is QM impossible? Quarks? Photons? Gluons? Glue Balls? I sure hope you don't vote.

I wrote:
"We no longer treat infections with bleeding ... we use antibiotics."
And dvk responded:
"REP: I am not denying the existence of Science."

Of course you aren't but then that's a red herring because I didn't say you were. My point which you conveniently ignored was that your god created penicillin but didn't bother in thousands of years to tell anyone while watching innocent young children die horrible painful deaths. Then, if you believe in Christianity, he sent his son to help mankind and that little troll either didn't bother to tell anyone about penicillin either. Why?

Anybody with half a brain in the middle ages knew to put moldy bread on an infection. But they didn't learn it from their holy books full of advice like "don't eat pork" and "don't eat shellfish." Why?

And that why can only be answered in one of three ways:
1. Your god didn't know penicillin existed.
2. Your god knew about penicillin and kept secret.
3. Your god doesn't exist.

You tell me ... which of these 3 you believe. It is, after all, your personal god.

Speaking for myself ... if (1) Then god didn't create it ... if (2) god is a genocidal maniac filled with hate and malice. Thus I choose 3.


DA Morgan
#12180 09/15/05 04:26 AM
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If there is a god then whose definition of that god would you want used for the empirical proof?
REP: Definition of GOD is independent of its practitioners.It like the Ultimate truth which Physics is trying to reach but fails to express itslef completely.And such a partial truth doesnt make it redundant or false.
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You tell me specifically WHICH god and I will provide you with the empirical proof.
REP:God who lives inside you.
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dvk wrote: "Impossible abilities are found in humans"
This statement is utter and complete nonsense on its face. It demonstrates either an inability to think or an inability to write with clarity. An ability that exists can NOT be impossible.
REP: Impossible is an ability which can be accomplished by non-humans.May be God.And that is to create a Universe. We can create such a Universe in Principle therefore we can accomplish the impossible.
Happy??!!!
=======================================
And the fact that you with your limited intelligence, limited education, and limited understanding think something is impossible does not make it so.
REP:Isnt it true that with so many limitations I remain beyond known limitations?
========================================
You don't understand Quantum Mechanics, neither does the pope, neither did the writers of any holy book of any religion. So is QM impossible? Quarks? Photons? Gluons? Glue Balls? I sure hope you don't vote.
REP: What I dont understand tell me ? Physics ,Geography , Computers , Maths ,Arts, History , Politics ....The language you use may be different but I can epxress the same with no effort.
==================================
And dvk responded:
"REP: I am not denying the existence of Science."
Of course you aren't but then that's a red herring because I didn't say you were. My point which you conveniently ignored was that your god created penicillin but didn't bother in thousands of years to tell anyone while watching innocent young children die horrible painful deaths. Then, if you believe in Christianity, he sent his son to help mankind and that little troll either didn't bother to tell anyone about penicillin either. Why?
REP: Becuase he had no idea that he will ever need penicillin... He never imagined we will fight so madly. This is reason why he allowed it come into existence. He wants to maintain peace on earth.All the techonological developments are taking place in order to maintain peace.
=====================================
And that why can only be answered in one of three ways:
1. Your god didn't know penicillin existed.
2. Your god knew about penicillin and kept secret.
3. Your god doesn't exist.
REP: Answer I told you .It was beyond your one line answers.
========================================
Speaking for myself ... if (1) Then god didn't create it ... if (2) god is a genocidal maniac filled with hate and malice. Thus I choose 3.
REP: Are you a drug company mafia?

#12181 09/15/05 06:05 AM
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" Definition of GOD is independent of its practitioners.It like the Ultimate truth which Physics is trying to reach but fails to express itslef completely"

"God who lives inside you."

There are mutually exclusive statements. Are you confused? You're sure confusing me. I don't know what you believe, you waffle around more than GWBush.

#12182 09/15/05 06:48 AM
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#12183 09/15/05 04:54 PM
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dvk wrote:
"REP: Definition of GOD is independent of its practitioners."

Your willingness to advertise your complete and utter ignorance on this subject matter is the stuff of which legends are written. I can't respond to this statement as no rabbi, priest, imam, etc. would agree with you. Each religion assigns different interpretations and characteristics to its god.

dvk worte: "REP:God who lives inside you."

The only thing living inside of me is a tapeworm. And he assures me he didn't create the universe or anyone as ignorant as you.

dvk wrote:
"REP: Impossible is an ability which can be accomplished by non-humans."

Word have meaning ... try using a dictionary or learning English. Whichever is easiest for you.

dvk wrote:
"REP:Isnt it true that with so many limitations I remain beyond known limitations?"

Well beyond rational thinking of that we can be sure. I really do hope you are a child. So your chronological age will correspond with the sophistication of your brain.

dvk wrote:
"REP: Are you a drug company mafia?"

Are you 10 years old? You repeatedly demonstrate an inability to engage in critical thinking, an inability to comprehend simple concepts, and an inability to behave like an adult. Your answer to this question clearly indicates what you really believe in: Nothing.


DA Morgan
#12184 09/19/05 06:30 AM
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I have given the answers elsewhere.

The God is independent of religion as it is the unlitmate truth which all religions are trying to achieve.
Each one of them have different point of view because they never cared to understand what the other religion is saying.
The situtaion is very much familiar to String theory followers.

#12185 09/19/05 01:55 PM
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I don't think this board is a place for any inquiry into superior beings as most people here made up their minds long ago, and, like Uncle Al, have become highly proficient in name calling instead of analytical thinking.

That mankind has always found a need to understand his place and purpose in life can be argued as either cause or effect, does not negate its efficiency in making our lives more meaningful and more fulfilling. We have several dysfunction intellects on the website that due to a low emotional intelligence cannot relate with what religion means to you. They categorize it into a box of non-scientific and thereby strip humanity of it's emotional characteristics and virtues. The care and love we humans can have for our offspring is boiled down to a survivalist behavior built into our genes.

In fact, those with low EQ are often those raised by parents not adept at care and nurturing, and so they haven't experienced deep self-sacrificing love. Some here, Kevin comes to mind, have recovered from difficult childhoods, and discovered that side of human nature on their own. Religion and philosophy suggest answers to deeper questions about how we should live and die, than science, especially physical science, can ever answer.

And yet, in this here and now, we live in a wonderful world. We can appreciate it and learn much of how something so complex can be made from so few building blocks, and maybe make our world better. In the Old Testament, Jehovah (the self existing one as he called himself) told Moses he would make Moses a god unto Pharaoh. I.e. Moses would have god like powers in Pharaoh?s eyes.

I think we are indeed becoming like the gods, learning how to create and destroy life as never before. Learning and knowledge cannot be stopped (our scientist friends will continue to create and discard theories, getting ever closer to the truth), but our wisdom of how to use that truth and knowledge must keep pace so that we do not destroy ourselves. Knowledge and wisdom sometimes contend with each other, but they together define us as human beings.


Sparky
#12186 09/20/05 12:55 AM
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A child wrote:
"The God is independent of religion"

And no doubt you can write down a description of that independent entity and get practitioners of Shinto in Japan to agree with you.

Are are their beliefs less important than yours?


DA Morgan
#12187 09/20/05 04:19 AM
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#12188 09/20/05 03:10 PM
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DA Morgan
#12189 09/21/05 04:05 AM
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I agree, in some sense, with what you just wrote. But it is a bit of a joke to mention Buddhists given that they would think your ability to count 'gods' rather challenged.
REP: I agree with you but this challenge appears because Buddha died and his followers are following what he told them when the time period and understanding was different.. this is the reason some say God comes again to explain what he meant by THAT and why we need to REWRITE some of it.
But this does not take away validity of some fundamental truths which are still admired by so many followers and non-followers.

#12190 09/21/05 06:32 PM
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Some interesting stuff. I personally have never understod why there is conflict between those of science and those of a religious following. Usually it is the religious side that wants to inject itself into the lives of other people. To believe in science and its prospect for improving life is not an automatic denial of a belief in a religious concept.

The point here is that those of religious groups are agressors wanting to challenge every body in some weird confrontation that people of science want to leave alone or simply ignore. When not confronted with some zealous believer I have no trouble at all ignoring all religions even though there may be a church or a temple on every other corner and millions of people get tax deductions for the money spent to support their religion - every day and every year since before I was born. This favor is for the good work these religious groups do - for whom? - I think for their own parishoners or people they want to convert to their belief.

So dkv wants to find some "scientific" proof that God exists! This is not the place to find comfort for such searching. Find God in faith.

jim wood

#12191 09/22/05 03:34 AM
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dvk: Ok not followers of Buddha ... just those of the Hindu faith. Or Shinto. Or any one of thousands of others that could be named. You avoided the point but not well enough to be left off the hook.

jjw004 wrote:
"I personally have never understod why there is conflict between those of science and those of a religious following"

Have you been living in a cave? Or do you expect someone else to expalin why you don't understand it. The conflict is as primary as the difference between fact and fiction, truth and lie, proof and fraud. How difficult is it?


DA Morgan
#12192 09/23/05 04:17 AM
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dvk: Ok not followers of Buddha ... just those of the Hindu faith. Or Shinto. Or any one of thousands of others that could be named. You avoided the point but not well enough to be left off the hook.
Morgan,
All religions including the Hindu Faith need to revist their own base religions interpretations.
Although so many follow there are only few who resonate with the Godhood.

#12193 09/23/05 04:50 AM
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dvk wrote:
"All religions including the Hindu Faith need to revist their own base religions interpretations."

Directly conflicting your original statement when I asked you to define specifically which god you wanted me to systematically disprove. Too bad your memory is too bad to remember back just a few posts to your previous inability to give a straight answer to a simple question.

BTW: Godhood? Is that like motherhood or hoodlum?


DA Morgan
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