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#12134 - 11/02/06 04:48 PM is dawkins delusional? ...from the frontpage
anyman Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/18/04
Posts: 134
in short...utterly (dawkins is utterly delusional :-)

he whines about intolerance and yet is among the most intolerant of all humans

his philosophy (which is such a common, prevalent, widely touted philosophy...albeit immediately self-defeating :-) is so bankrupt...and so easily shown to be false...

ok, let's have a go...

intolerance is wrong

really?

yes, absolutely

so you are saying that you will not tolerate intolerance?

yes, absolutely not

why you intolerant bigot...you two faced bonehead :-)

next...

there are no ablsolutes

really?

yes, really!

are you sure?

quite sure!

are you absolutely sure?

absolutely!

ungh, hack, hack...

well, i'm not really absolutely sure, but...i mean, but, but, but, i mean...you know what i mean...

eh, sorry, what exactly, absolutely DO you mean?

hmmm :-)

next :-)

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#12135 - 11/02/06 05:36 PM Re: is dawkins delusional? ...from the frontpage
samwik Offline
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Registered: 10/10/06
Posts: 1164
Loc: Colorado
As a "Letter," I'd like to see this somewhere else. At least NQ, but Origins maybe?? I'll answer over there (if comp. stays up) smile
_________________________
Pyrolysis creates reduced carbon! ...Time for the next step in our evolutionary symbiosis with fire.

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#12136 - 11/02/06 06:21 PM Re: is dawkins delusional? ...from the frontpage
Blacknad Offline
Superstar

Registered: 10/05/05
Posts: 901
Loc: Coventry, England
Dan has already posted a thread on this book in Origins:

The God Delusion: A Book Review.

Blacknad.

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#12137 - 11/02/06 06:25 PM Re: is dawkins delusional? ...from the frontpage
DA Morgan Offline
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Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
anyman ... if you have something of substance to back up your opinion ... post it.

A link to a peer reviewed journal article?
A link to a university researcher's site?
A note written on the wall of a toilet stall?

Last time I checked Dawkins had a PhD and was considered a subject matter expert. And you are?

In other words ... if you wish to refute him ... do so with facts and data.
_________________________
DA Morgan

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#12138 - 11/02/06 06:49 PM Re: is dawkins delusional? ...from the frontpage
anyman Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/18/04
Posts: 134
so this is the main feature story on the front page of sciagog...and it can't be discussed in the science forum

sad day

probably makes sense though, dawkins is long on stories and short on science in virtually every book (and or article) he's ever written :-)

didn't know you had already started a thread on this over there, dano

my bad :-)

however, i refuted him very succinctly with facts above

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#12139 - 11/02/06 06:54 PM Re: is dawkins delusional? ...from the frontpage
samwik Offline
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Registered: 10/10/06
Posts: 1164
Loc: Colorado
Sorry, I was wondering what that FrontPage reference was; didn't see that. Still....
smile
_________________________
Pyrolysis creates reduced carbon! ...Time for the next step in our evolutionary symbiosis with fire.

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#12140 - 11/02/06 06:57 PM Re: is dawkins delusional? ...from the frontpage
TheFallibleFiend Offline
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Registered: 06/08/05
Posts: 1940
Loc: http://thefalliblefiend.blogsp...
I haven't read the book, but I have a strong sense I'm going to disagree with Dawkins for the same reason I disagree with many of my fellow atheists.

OTOH, I don't anticipate that Dawkins' argument will be so much a scientific conclusion as a logical and philsophical one.

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#12141 - 11/02/06 07:20 PM Re: is dawkins delusional? ...from the frontpage
Blacknad Offline
Superstar

Registered: 10/05/05
Posts: 901
Loc: Coventry, England
Quote:
Originally posted by TheFallibleFiend:
OTOH, I don't anticipate that Dawkins' argument will be so much a scientific conclusion as a logical and philsophical one.
You're not wrong TFF. But science refutes at least one of his arguments regarding Suicide Bombers.

"Dawkins repeats the theory that suicide bombs are caused by religious schools: "If children were taught to question and think through their beliefs, instead of being taught the superior value of faith without question, it is a good bet that there would be no suicide bombers. Suicide bombers do what they do because they really believe what they were taught in their religious schools." Evidence? As it happens, the definitive scientific study of suicide bombers, Dying to Win, has just been published by Robert Pape, a Chicago professor who has a database containing every known suicide attack since 1980. This shows, as clearly as evidence can, that religious zealotry is not on its own sufficient to produce suicide bombers; in fact, it's not even necessary: the practice was widely used by Marxist guerrillas in Sri Lanka."


Robert Pape found that under half of all recorded suicide attacks were carried out by religious types.

--------------------------------------

I'm interested in and have time for well formed critiques of religion, but to me, Dawkins is so consumed with his contempt of Theism that his judgement is somewhat clouded.

Blacknad.

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#12142 - 11/02/06 07:27 PM Re: is dawkins delusional? ...from the frontpage
DA Morgan Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
anyman asks:
"so this is the main feature story on the front page of sciagog...and it can't be discussed in the science forum"

Of course you can discuss it: But did you? You posted the subject "Topic: is dawkins delusional?"

That is not how you start a discussion. That is how you throw gasoline on a flame.

That you disagree with someone does not make them delusional. That you felt it necessary to use the word indicates a total lack of interest in discussing anything.

Personally I'd be far more inclined to consider delusional someone that criticizes what they have not read.
_________________________
DA Morgan

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#12143 - 11/02/06 07:33 PM Re: is dawkins delusional? ...from the frontpage
DA Morgan Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
IFF wrote:
"I don't anticipate that Dawkins' argument will be so much a scientific conclusion as a logical and philsophical one."

I have read the book ... and you are correct ... and that is the weakness of the book.

The problem is partially that Dawkins has become a bit of a zealot, hurting his objectivity, and partially that he is trying (and failing) to try to meet the theologians on their own territory. One can not have an unreasonable discussion with an unreasonable man.

The only approach to someone with unreasonable beliefs ... is an appeal to simple Boolean logic.
_________________________
DA Morgan

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#12144 - 11/02/06 07:36 PM Re: is dawkins delusional? ...from the frontpage
samwik Offline
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Registered: 10/10/06
Posts: 1164
Loc: Colorado
...guess I won't wait for this to show up on "Origins." (a little lobbying)

YES, I was surprised to hear a few years ago that suicide bombers are often well-educated, successful types. I wonder if they had other family members involved previously, that they sympathized with. I try to imagine what would make me do something like that...but I'd rather not try that very often.
~sa
_________________________
Pyrolysis creates reduced carbon! ...Time for the next step in our evolutionary symbiosis with fire.

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#12145 - 11/02/06 07:51 PM Re: is dawkins delusional? ...from the frontpage
samwik Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/10/06
Posts: 1164
Loc: Colorado
Cool! way to go moderators?
...better than on "hard science."
~samwik smile
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Pyrolysis creates reduced carbon! ...Time for the next step in our evolutionary symbiosis with fire.

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#12146 - 11/02/06 08:14 PM Re: is dawkins delusional? ...from the frontpage
samwik Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/10/06
Posts: 1164
Loc: Colorado
I like your analysis of the book, anyman (original post). It shows how if you get to the basic assumptions of any idea, it's pretty easy to dismantle any following derived arguments.
And a very well styled critique too. It was my first smile of the day -almost LOL.
Thanks,
~samwik
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Pyrolysis creates reduced carbon! ...Time for the next step in our evolutionary symbiosis with fire.

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#12147 - 11/02/06 08:52 PM Re: is dawkins delusional? ...from the frontpage
DA Morgan Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
Tell me samwik what you find amusing about what anyman wrote. Here's my analysis paragraph by paragraph.

1. "he whines about intolerance and yet is among the most intolerant of all humans"

Has nothing to do with science.

2. "his philosophy ... is so bankrupt...and so easily shown to be false"

But anyman doesn't and can't.

What anyman wrote might work on Monty Python but it doesn't expose of substance.

Dawkins books is, in my mind, primarily a rock thrown back at all of those who have been throwing rocks at him. And rock throwers, no matter who they are, don't win intellectual arguments.
_________________________
DA Morgan

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#12148 - 11/02/06 09:31 PM Re: is dawkins delusional? ...from the frontpage
Anonymous
Unregistered


The thing that all these people who write about religion and science miss is that the belief system in humans is built into the brain. Our brains, being fairly slow working items, need several "short cut" methods to enable us to make decisions in the time available to us. We cannot "reason out" every decision because we do not have enough time or available facts to do so.

So we have a belief system which is built up from experience or acquired knowledge or suggestions by others as to the way the world works. One of these suggestions is religion. It enables us to make decisions without really analysing the problems. We could not operate without the system, but it is often hijacked by irresponsible people for their own benefit.

It is not a built-in religious aptitude, it works for almost anything we do. If we were to switch it off we would not be able to operate in society. The fact that it can be used to our own detriment is just unfortunate, now that the unscrupulous people among us have codified how to use it for their own benefit.

As the bumper sticker used to say "Question Authority."

Sileno.

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#12149 - 11/02/06 10:49 PM Re: is dawkins delusional? ...from the frontpage
samwik Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/10/06
Posts: 1164
Loc: Colorado
As a "Letter," I'd like to see this somewhere else. At least NQ, but Origins maybe?? I'll answer over there (if comp. stays up) -samwik

-which is why I wonder why you're asking for scientific stuff to back up this "Letter."

I smiled because it's the same old thing. As anyman put it:
"however, i refuted him very succinctly with facts above" -anyman

Again, with the "facts!"

It's another example of how if one can always refute the basic princilples of a theory or idea by aking how one proves it. (y'know, what came before the big bang? etc.)

I'm a big fan of monty python, and as i said i like his style of presenting the argument. Doesn't mean I agree with it though. I haven't read the book, etc.

more to say but comp. about to lock up
_________________________
Pyrolysis creates reduced carbon! ...Time for the next step in our evolutionary symbiosis with fire.

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#12150 - 11/02/06 11:13 PM Re: is dawkins delusional? ...from the frontpage
samwik Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/10/06
Posts: 1164
Loc: Colorado
DA,
Dawkins would "try to meet the theologians on their own territory." -DA

Exactly! This is what I'm talking about, re: basic assumption. They don't accept ours and we don't accept theirs, so no argument will make sense to the other side.
The only way to try is to either look at things from the other side or get them to look at it from your side.

my comment about it being "well styled" addresses your monty python comment; somewhat tautological also.
DA & anyman: Both of your's posts above refer to "facts."
That's always a sign that the basic assumptions are vastly different; and that's why I smiled (i wouldn't say "amused," DA; but more like a bemused contentment of (been there, done that) type of thing. Sorry, this is way too vague and hard to describe; subjective. But anyway

...sorry, computer froze. I better log off while I've got it back. That was enogh for now anyway. 6:13-6:19 = 6 minutes to reboot.
Thanks all,
~Sam
_________________________
Pyrolysis creates reduced carbon! ...Time for the next step in our evolutionary symbiosis with fire.

Top
#12151 - 11/02/06 11:19 PM Re: is dawkins delusional? ...from the frontpage
DA Morgan Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
I think we are in agreement but I'll state my case yet again using different terms.

I put an Orthodox Jewish Rabbi, the Pope, a Sunni Imam, and an animist in a room. Stick a thermometer into a pot of water and say: "Tell me at what temperature the water freezes." They will all agree.

Now I say to the same group: "Show me proof that your god is the one true god and everyone else in the room is wrong." They will never agree.

One is science.
The other is faith.
The result is purely Boolean.
_________________________
DA Morgan

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#12152 - 11/03/06 12:26 AM Re: is dawkins delusional? ...from the frontpage
Rusty Rockets Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/04/05
Posts: 175
Quote:
Originally posted by anyman:
in short...utterly (dawkins is utterly delusional :-)

he whines about intolerance and yet is among the most intolerant of all humans

his philosophy (which is such a common, prevalent, widely touted philosophy...albeit immediately self-defeating :-) is so bankrupt...and so easily shown to be false...

ok, let's have a go...

intolerance is wrong

really?

yes, absolutely

so you are saying that you will not tolerate intolerance?

yes, absolutely not

why you intolerant bigot...you two faced bonehead :-)

next...

there are no ablsolutes

really?

yes, really!

are you sure?

quite sure!

are you absolutely sure?

absolutely!

ungh, hack, hack...

well, i'm not really absolutely sure, but...i mean, but, but, but, i mean...you know what i mean...

eh, sorry, what exactly, absolutely DO you mean?

hmmm :-)

next :-)
I don't think you've really captured the essence of Dawkins' main argument here, anyman. If you're going to criticize a body of work, surely you'd agree that it's better that you attempt to chip away at an opponent's strongest points.

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#12153 - 11/03/06 12:26 AM Re: is dawkins delusional? ...from the frontpage
Blacknad Offline
Superstar

Registered: 10/05/05
Posts: 901
Loc: Coventry, England
Quote:
Originally posted by DA Morgan:
Dawkins books is, in my mind, primarily a rock thrown back at all of those who have been throwing rocks at him.
IMO no one was throwing rocks at Dawkins until he set upon the theists. There is no great religious opposition to evolution in the UK, unlike America. A lot of his opposition has come from non-religious like the philosopher Mary Midgley.

Dawkins has been beating up theists ever since he could first string a sentence together.

My perception of him is that he is an exceptional thinker, but he allows his emotions to take over when he debates religion and therefore loses clarity and authority.

Blacknad.

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