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#11532 - 10/20/06 09:18 PM Re: The Expanding Universe,
jjw Offline
Superstar

Registered: 09/07/05
Posts: 636
Loc: USA
I claim no special training in astronomy. What I know of it was self taught piece-meal over many years. You have a way of offering a question that includes an assumption of certain ingredients that would make it impossible for me to answer honestly.

You assume a Big Bang and I do not.
Your assumption appears to make it a condition precedent to everything and I do not accept that as an established fact. When you sit back and reconsider our leaders present coclusions you will see that each step requires the next step if you wish to make sense of it all. There must be a bang to start exspansion. We must find a way to show that there is exspansion. We must find ingredients in space that confirm the Bang and so on and on. It is not unlikely that you will find that specific thing you seek, and, behold, the path is complete so why question it?

Uncle Al, in another topic reply, reffered to me as a "simple creature" and after giving that contention some thought I agreed. I endeavor to view the universe and its contents in a simplistic way. The theories you recite are just a means of trying to explain- as yet unproven- what others believe about the universe. I do not contend any ones view point is incorrect. I just rely, for now, on my own views.

My simplistic view is that there is no edge of space, it is infinite. The universe that is contained in that space may expand or contract while having no effct on the space within which it exists. Based on proven, or unproven facts, if you prefer, the universe is not expanding as is argued.

You may reasonably regard my views as retarded in the light of the extensive evidence offered to prove current conclusions and I expect that. The fine details will be the hurdle that the current basic view of an expanding universe will fail on, or maybe not. Big Bang or Bust.

It is all in fun and I see it that way.
jjw

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#11533 - 10/20/06 09:45 PM Re: The Expanding Universe,
DA Morgan Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
jjw wrote:
"You assume a Big Bang and I do not."

There is not a single data point that contradicts the big bang with inflation theory of which I am aware.

What is the point of clinging to that which is no longer attached?
_________________________
DA Morgan

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#11534 - 10/20/06 10:15 PM Re: The Expanding Universe,
dehammer Offline
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Registered: 03/23/06
Posts: 1089
actually da, there was an article link to in the forum i think last month that showed that some kind of radiation they expected to be lower if there had been a big bang, was not lower. According to some, that put the theory of the big bang to a question.
_________________________
the more man learns, the more he realises, he really does not know anything.

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#11535 - 10/20/06 10:25 PM Re: The Expanding Universe,
samwik Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/10/06
Posts: 1164
Loc: Colorado
Okay jjw, that's fine; let's get rid of the big bang. I still want to ask if you see space as existing before the universe. You already said that you see them as distinct, so this would clarify that distinction for me; that's all.

I like the way you wrote this: "The theories you recite are just a means of trying to explain- as yet unproven- what others believe about the universe."

I agree. I think all the theories are way off when it comes truly describing reality, but those same theories do have remarkable predictive powers and allow us to share ideas with a more or less common understanding. Theories usually aren't "right," but they sure are useful. I'm kinda on a rant about this, these days (see God & science, on Origins forum).

Keep on speculating,
~~Samwik
_________________________
Pyrolysis creates reduced carbon! ...Time for the next step in our evolutionary symbiosis with fire.

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#11536 - 10/21/06 07:05 PM Re: The Expanding Universe,
jjw Offline
Superstar

Registered: 09/07/05
Posts: 636
Loc: USA
DA, that is a serious question:

"There is not a single data point that contradicts the big bang with inflation theory of which I am aware.
What is the point of clinging to that which is no longer attached?"

Probably no point at all. I think it is the difference in opinions that breeds knowledge and not the concurrence of same. Maybe not.

Samwik:

I doubt I will be able to satisfy your hunger for better explanations of what we see. As to the existence of space and the presence of the universe I suggest you consider - "which came first the fish or the water?" That is not the same as the "chicken and the egg" game.

With my hypo the water is space and the fish is the universe. The fish can not exist on its own. It required a medium into which to grow. If you wish to look at things that way you will have some idea of my simplistic viewpoint.
jjw

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#11537 - 10/21/06 08:03 PM Re: The Expanding Universe,
DA Morgan Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
dehammer wrote:
"actually da, there was an article link to in the forum i think last month that showed that some kind of radiation they expected to be lower if there had been a big bang, was not lower. According to some, that put the theory of the big bang to a question."

Can you find it? I can not. And without reviewing it I can not comment upon it.
_________________________
DA Morgan

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#11538 - 10/21/06 10:23 PM Re: The Expanding Universe,
samwik Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/10/06
Posts: 1164
Loc: Colorado
Hiya jjw, Thanks for the explanation. Yep, that makes it clear.

dehammer: sounds interesting.
I searched big bang models (make sure it?s plural) and xxxx (various terms such as radiation deficit). So did a google on "big-bang models and radiation deficit" and found lots of neat stuff, but not what you asked about. I?m going back though; look what I found!

"Anisotropic four-dimensional Neveu-Schwarz?Neveu-Schwarz string cosmology"
Abstract:
An anisotropic (Bianchi type I) cosmology is considered in the four-dimensional NS-NS sector of low-energy effective string theory coupled to a dilaton and an axion-like Higgs-field within a de Sitter-Einstein frame background. The time evolution of this Universe is discussed in both the Einstein and string frames.
http://arxiv.org/abs/hep-th/0005236
[Phys.Rev. D63 (2001) 064002]

~~samwik?

?and this is 5 years old!
_________________________
Pyrolysis creates reduced carbon! ...Time for the next step in our evolutionary symbiosis with fire.

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#11539 - 10/22/06 01:22 AM Re: The Expanding Universe,
Pragmatist Offline
Member

Registered: 03/10/06
Posts: 84
Loc: N.W. U.S.
Here's a link to some late 'bang radiation` ideas, written for popular consumption:
http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?chanID=...60883414B7F0123

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#11540 - 10/22/06 03:53 AM Re: The Expanding Universe,
samwik Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/10/06
Posts: 1164
Loc: Colorado
Paints a nice picture, but 6 pages long. neat links at the end. Thanks...
~samwik
_________________________
Pyrolysis creates reduced carbon! ...Time for the next step in our evolutionary symbiosis with fire.

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#11541 - 10/22/06 04:49 PM Re: The Expanding Universe,
jjw Offline
Superstar

Registered: 09/07/05
Posts: 636
Loc: USA
Hi Pragmatist:

I read the link you provided and I am duly impressed with the complexity of the issues facing the experts in their study of the universe. No doubt the only people that will make progress in the areas in which they search will be the academics that are being paid to do the work and that have the expensive and exotic equipment required for their work. I note your author tells us there will be a new orbiting telescope for their use in the near future and it will be exciting to see what they find in the distance.

I am not much interested in the universe except possibly in a philosophical way. I may make a comment once in a while on the Big Bang theory because the origins of same bear such a strong comparison to creation and that turns the topic into an unwelcome comparison. I am not paid to have opinions on this subject like your author and I could not qualify if the job was available.

My interest for possibly 40 years or more has focused on the Solar System. Mainly dealing with the mechanics of the operation and searching out the curious things that are usually not discussed by the experts- or for that matter that they are unaware of. This limitation works for me because I only require published data from the experts as my tools and a fertile imagination. A computer and a good calculator help.
jjw

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#11542 - 10/22/06 05:34 PM Re: The Expanding Universe,
dehammer Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/23/06
Posts: 1089
Quote:
Originally posted by DA Morgan:
dehammer wrote:
"actually da, there was an article link to in the forum i think last month that showed that some kind of radiation they expected to be lower if there had been a big bang, was not lower. According to some, that put the theory of the big bang to a question."

Can you find it? I can not. And without reviewing it I can not comment upon it.
heres the article that rusty wrote

http://www.scienceagogo.com/news/20060804220220data_trunc_sys.shtml

im not saying the big bang didnt happen, just that there is evidence that it might not have as we expect it to have.
_________________________
the more man learns, the more he realises, he really does not know anything.

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#11543 - 10/22/06 06:48 PM Re: The Expanding Universe,
samwik Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/10/06
Posts: 1164
Loc: Colorado
"...not saying the big bang didnt happen, just that there is evidence that it might not have as we expect it to have."

That's why there is more than one model. wink
~S
_________________________
Pyrolysis creates reduced carbon! ...Time for the next step in our evolutionary symbiosis with fire.

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#11544 - 10/22/06 08:50 PM Re: The Expanding Universe,
DA Morgan Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
That's why there is more than one model. [Wink]

Precisely!
_________________________
DA Morgan

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#11545 - 10/28/06 08:02 PM Re: The Expanding Universe,
jjw Offline
Superstar

Registered: 09/07/05
Posts: 636
Loc: USA
A note samwik:

I used the water and the fish as a metaphor.
nothing more.
jjw

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