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#11512 - 07/25/06 11:23 PM Re: The Expanding Universe,
dehammer Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/23/06
Posts: 1089
that's the point, you were playing a game, one of oneupmanship and you had to go into metaphysics since you could not back up your argument with physics.

there is only one thing in the universe that does not have an inside and an outside. that is an imaginary point. a sphere has an inside and an outside. if you claim it did not, the only way to do so was to claim it did not exist.

again i say, if you can back up your claim with physics, give a reference. if you have to develve into the metaphsics this is not the place for it. my explination still stands. anything that can force an expansion from inside can be considered a pressure. If there was nothing outside, then it was by definition a vacuum. If the sphere was a lightyear in size, everything less than a half lightyear from the center would be considered inside of the outer edge.

there is no two ways about it. either it existed, or we dont. I know for myself that i exist. i believe that rose, jjw and the others exist. what about you? unless they made the universe just for me (that possiblity is so slim i dont think you can put enough zeros past the one, certainly not on this page), then something existed seconds after the big bang, and all the scientist i have ever read about say it was a sphere. therefore it had an inside, and there fore it could have a pressure.

therefore none of your "explinations" stand up to the smallest application of logic.
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the more man learns, the more he realises, he really does not know anything.

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#11513 - 07/26/06 09:46 PM Re: The Expanding Universe,
DA Morgan Offline
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Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
YOYO dehammer.

Post whatever nonsense you wish. I'll no longer respond.
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DA Morgan

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#11514 - 07/26/06 10:18 PM Re: The Expanding Universe,
dehammer Offline
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Registered: 03/23/06
Posts: 1089
that is because you have nothing to back up your metaphysical pronouncements. i have never heard a real scientist of any branch claim there was no space outside of the universe. if you chose to keep your religious beliefs that your right, but don't expect others to follow them.
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the more man learns, the more he realises, he really does not know anything.

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#11515 - 09/07/06 04:47 PM Re: The Expanding Universe,
Andist Offline
Member

Registered: 09/03/06
Posts: 78
Loc: London
If our galaxy is expanding, then we are expanding and so are our yardsticks, we would not notice, perhaps?

I have a question to ask:

What happens to light emitted from sources very close to the "edge" of the universe?

If the universe is expanding, then it must have a furthest point, beyond which, there is no space for light to go. What happens to this light, emitted at a point where there is not enough gravity to alter it's course?
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"The written word is a lie"

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#11516 - 09/07/06 11:04 PM Re: The Expanding Universe,
dehammer Offline
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Registered: 03/23/06
Posts: 1089
its not the atom of the universe that is expanding, its the space between the galaxies that is expanding. therefore we do notice it.

as for the light from the most distant stars, who knows. it might go on forever or be reflected backwords by the lack of space beyound
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the more man learns, the more he realises, he really does not know anything.

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#11517 - 09/07/06 11:49 PM Re: The Expanding Universe,
Andist Offline
Member

Registered: 09/03/06
Posts: 78
Loc: London
whilst space has no mass, it may be expanding because it is a finite amount of space, spreading out
How do we know that atoms are not expanding along with the instruments with which the are measured?

Antway, that is not so important to me as the Question I asked:

Im surprised by the fact that you are nonchalant about what happens to them (photons that is).

If reflected, they should be observable with telescopes which could mean that some distantly observed old stars are merely reflections of even older stars.

Also, there are many stars, which could mean such photon reflection that we would have to wear sunglasses at night.

Another possibility is that they disappear on contact, but that would break the conservation of energy law, I think.
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"The written word is a lie"

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#11518 - 09/08/06 02:19 AM Re: The Expanding Universe,
dehammer Offline
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Registered: 03/23/06
Posts: 1089
If the instruments were expanding at the same rate there would be no evidence of the universe expanding.
_________________________
the more man learns, the more he realises, he really does not know anything.

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#11519 - 09/18/06 04:57 PM Re: The Expanding Universe,
jjw Offline
Superstar

Registered: 09/07/05
Posts: 636
Loc: USA
Re the ?expanding universe? issue:

I see the statement as a sort of misnomer.
The theory is that distant galaxies appear to be moving away from us with speed increases related to their distance from us. Literally this only says that objects we see in the universe are moving away from us. This observation does not prove that the ?universe? is expanding, only that the content is in motion.

The point may not be important to those that think the ?universe is expanding? but the idea should be tempered to allow for a universe of infinite size into which objects are traveling away from us. To do otherwise automatically conveys the idea that the universe has an edge which is expanding, enlarging, while objects are going along with it. Also it now gives source to the idea that what we see of the universe content is all there is when we must be aware we have seen very little of it.
jjw

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#11520 - 09/19/06 01:46 AM Re: The Expanding Universe,
Rascal Puff Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 09/14/06
Posts: 7
Loc: U.S.A.
The 'expanding universe' issue.
Please refer to http://forums.delphiforums.com.EinsteinGroupie. This is not spam (there's no sales pitch going on here), it's an abbreviated, full length edition of a 48 year old series of sold out hard copy small press editions of an evolved work originally entitled 'An hypothesis on Gravity', presently recondensed to the title 'Total Field Theory'.
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Modern day Finalized Reality is like a bus schedule - there'll be another one along shortly. Present day hypotheses are often perceived and presented as theories.

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#11521 - 09/19/06 03:55 AM Re: The Expanding Universe,
Anonymous
Unregistered


Rascal Puff:
I tried the link above and got a "Server not found" error. Do you have another link or can you summarize the article in question? Thanks.

Amaranth
Moderator

PS: yes I follow every link and read every posting.

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#11522 - 10/16/06 08:03 AM Re: The Expanding Universe,
samwik Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/10/06
Posts: 1164
Loc: Colorado
jjw: regarding the faster recession of farther galaxies: I think it's easy enough to understand if you think of the space between galaxies as divided up into sections, with each section expanding. Light is "stretched" by the expansion of a section, and if it travels through more sections, it is stretched more. The farther galaxies are more redshifted due to spatial expansion, but that does not really relate to their actual speed. We can observe redshift caused by proper motion also, as the stars of another galaxy rotate towards us vs. the other side of that galaxy rotating away from us. Other proper motion relative to ours is observable as galaxies stream towards the 'great attractor.'
I sure enjoyed this thread as I've had a lot of thoughts along the lines of that McCrutchen guy (spelling/right thread?), but this is the only question that I thought had an easy answer (in terms of 4 dimensional reality).
~Sam
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Pyrolysis creates reduced carbon! ...Time for the next step in our evolutionary symbiosis with fire.

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#11523 - 10/17/06 12:48 AM Re: The Expanding Universe,
jjw Offline
Superstar

Registered: 09/07/05
Posts: 636
Loc: USA
Hi samwik:

For me there is a serious difference between the universe and space. People try to define what they see and come up with what appears to be convincing theories. Recall Corpernicus? I can read historical data that sounds impressive and very congratulatory upon others observations of his conclusions.

I am sure that you have an excellent grasp of the subject- likely much better than anything that I would be offering.

To suggest that the universe is expanding is like saying that space itself is expanding. Otherwise I expect a distinction to be made between space and the universe. I want an endless space that may contain a limited universe- or not. Every time we invent a better telescope for orbitting we see more objects. I contend that the leaders do not have the foggiest idea of the size of our enviornment in terms of space. It's almost a little childish.

Assuming, without concedeing or accepting, that the red shift is a valid measure of objects movements then there may be some basis to conclude that objects are moving away from us. If for fun we say "no way", then we need to show what is wrong with the conclusion. They, the aristocrats of astronomy, are not really interested in looking into the question. It is very comforting to be right; something I can not claim to enjoy in all of my interests.
jjw

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#11524 - 10/17/06 02:53 AM Re: The Expanding Universe,
samwik Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/10/06
Posts: 1164
Loc: Colorado
I don't want to get caught up in semantics, but...
re:
Quote:
Originally posted by jjw:
1..To suggest that the universe is expanding is like saying that space itself is expanding.
Yes, that's exactly right, space is expanding.
2..Otherwise I expect a distinction to be made between space and the universe.
So, no there shouldn't be a distinction.
3..I want an endless space that may contain a limited universe- or not.
Here is where semantics get difficult. I guess here I'd just say the definition of universe is all inclusive, so not 'limited' (except by the expansion of space).
4..Every time we invent a better telescope for orbiting we see more objects. jjw [/QB]
This last statement is one of my favorite points: y'know the Observer Effect? Well maybe by observing farther, we are causing the universe to expand; and by observing more frequently, we are causing the expansion to accelerate.

If I want to think of outside the universe (our 4-D universe) I think of it as a 4-D bubble on an anti-DeSitter membrane in 8-space being sucked into a blck hole. -Hey, maybe that's why we're expanding; being stretched as we decend into the black hole. Hope this gives you a laugh (...but pause for a thought too). I've certainly questioned all these precepts too; and still do!
~Sam
_________________________
Pyrolysis creates reduced carbon! ...Time for the next step in our evolutionary symbiosis with fire.

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#11525 - 10/17/06 04:00 PM Re: The Expanding Universe,
DA Morgan Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
samwik wrote:
"Well maybe by observing farther, we are causing the universe to expand; and by observing more frequently, we are causing the expansion to accelerate."

Amazing. We just throw away the rules by which we understand physics. Force. Momentum. Acceleration. Causation.

Lets build bigger telescopes and see how far we can move the Andromeda galaxy.

Get a grip samwik. Preferably on a physics book. ;-)
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DA Morgan

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#11526 - 10/17/06 07:19 PM Re: The Expanding Universe,
samwik Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/10/06
Posts: 1164
Loc: Colorado
c'mon DA, didn't my response to jjw's first three points illustrate that I have picked up some physics books? Maybe I could have been clearer, but the stuff answered below the quoted section (not within the quoted section) was supposed to be summed up with the part you didn't quote: "Hope this gives you a laugh (...but pause for a thought too). I've certainly questioned all these precepts too; and still do!" -and I encourage jjw to continue questioning.

...and about questioning precepts: I like what you wrote: "Amazing. We just throw away the rules by which we understand physics. Force. Momentum. Acceleration. Causation." -DA
You've hit upon a very good point; that the rules are how we *understand* physics (but the rules are not reality). Newton came up with a very good approximation of reality. He gave us rules which worked in most cases, here on Earth. Einstein came up with a much better approximation of reality (by questioning precepts) which work in most cases even off of the Earth.
But neither of these "physics" allow us to understand everything. To get an even better approximation, or to get exact, I think we'll need to "think outside the box." I know that "observer effect" thing is not provable, but I don't think it's disprovable either. I've just always thought it was funny; like the old "Life is just natures way of turning light into heat."
Remember we're on the not-so science page here.

I'm surprised you didn't call me on the "anti-DeSitter membrane in 8-space" gobbledygook. I just threw that in as an "outside the box" type of prompt. It's actually a very bad description of some string theory stuff that I read about last year (but I added the stuff about stretching in a black hole to relate things back to expansion).

I'd sure like some help refuting (or proving) my shower-curtain effect (Scientific American, 2001) question. I need good, questioning, critical minds to help me follow through with "studying" this effect. Have you seen that topic on this forum? Maybe it'd have done better on the hard science forum; it's really not a joke.
Thanks,
~Sam
_________________________
Pyrolysis creates reduced carbon! ...Time for the next step in our evolutionary symbiosis with fire.

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#11527 - 10/17/06 08:31 PM Re: The Expanding Universe,
jjw Offline
Superstar

Registered: 09/07/05
Posts: 636
Loc: USA
samwik:

"c'mon DA, didn't my response to jjw's first three points illustrate that I have picked up some physics books? Maybe I could have been clearer"

I am pleased that you appear to be pleased.
From my point of view you made no response of note to what I made comment upon. Cheers.
jjw

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#11528 - 10/17/06 08:53 PM Re: The Expanding Universe,
Te Urukehu Offline
Member

Registered: 09/08/06
Posts: 51
Loc: Aotearoa
It is inevitable that our understanding of physics and the rules that currently apply will change with new information. The recent images from WMAP are already providing fertile new grounds for discovery. Dark energy has yet to be understood or even adequately described - simply put: humanity is far from understanding the complexity of creation and the rules underlying it. The truely brilliant thinkers have always thought "outside the square" which essentially has been the basis for much of human progress to date.
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Darkness is but the sum total of Creation inclusive of the Light.

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#11529 - 10/17/06 10:00 PM Re: The Expanding Universe,
samwik Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/10/06
Posts: 1164
Loc: Colorado
Thanks Te, &
So, jjw, I think I see your main point (that I missed before) re: "For me there is a serious difference between the universe and space." -jjw

I suppose if there is a 'serious difference,' then my 3 seven-word replies don't mean much. (1st two replies are 7 words; 3rd one as 'the definition of universe is [that the universe is] all inclusive,' is 7 words).

Anyway, umm; so if you have that view, then do you see space as also existing outside of the universe? That would clarify alot for me.
Thanks (..and do you have a shower curtain or glass door),
~Sam
_________________________
Pyrolysis creates reduced carbon! ...Time for the next step in our evolutionary symbiosis with fire.

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#11530 - 10/19/06 11:41 PM Re: The Expanding Universe,
jjw Offline
Superstar

Registered: 09/07/05
Posts: 636
Loc: USA
My glass enclosed shower works fine.
When growing up in more humble surroundings my shower curtain at one time was unreasonably attracted to me so I cut some upright slits in the lower portion, still within the tub, and found it to be better able to restrain itself.

As to space and the universe. I can not conceive
of a limit to either. A handicap of mine which I have never been able to overcome. Cheers.
jjw

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#11531 - 10/20/06 04:47 AM Re: The Expanding Universe,
samwik Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/10/06
Posts: 1164
Loc: Colorado
jjw, Thanks for the shower update. What an ingenious, novel solution (at least I've never heard of that one)! Guess I'll have to start a list of solutions. No way to tell whether that was from thermal or vortex effects, that I can see though.

And as for overcoming the concept of limits or boundaries, I say check out the string theories; our infinite space can be "contained" within higher dimensions.

I'd been anxiously waiting to see how you'd answer the space vs. universe thing; but I still don't get how you see them as different.

I know! I should have asked if you see space as existing before the big bang (or outside of the big bang at the beginning; into which the bigbang then expanded)?

Thanks for the shower report, and cheers too,
~Samwik
_________________________
Pyrolysis creates reduced carbon! ...Time for the next step in our evolutionary symbiosis with fire.

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