Welcome to
Science a GoGo's
Discussion Forums
Please keep your postings on-topic or they will be moved to a galaxy far, far away.
Your use of this forum indicates your agreement to our terms of use.
So that we remain spam-free, please note that all posts by new users are moderated.


The Forums
General Science Talk        Not-Quite-Science        Climate Change Discussion        Physics Forum        Science Fiction

Who's Online
0 registered (), 210 Guests and 1 Spider online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Latest Posts
welcome to the newly developing glaciation period.
by paul
10/24/19 03:23 PM
Potatoes on Mars
by paul
10/24/19 02:55 PM
Fishing , baiting the hook.
by paul
10/24/19 02:43 PM
F=mv ... mv=F
by paul
10/24/19 02:37 PM
Do we have a moderator?
by paul
10/23/19 12:30 AM
Is there anybody out there?
by paul
10/23/19 12:22 AM
Top Posters (30 Days)
paul 13
Page 1 of 4 1 2 3 4 >
Topic Options
#11472 - 07/17/06 06:42 PM The Expanding Universe,
jjw Offline
Superstar

Registered: 09/07/05
Posts: 636
Loc: USA
I know that the concept is well accepted by the accademic community but I can not help reviewing it every so often,

http://csep10.phys.utk.edu/astr162/lect/cosmology/expansion.html

"The Expansion of the Universe
Then, in the late 1920's, Hubble, building on results obtained earlier by Slipher, combined Doppler shift measurements of radial velocities with distance measurements to conclude that almost all galaxies were flying away from the Milky Way, and that the velocity of recession was proportional to the distance from us: the further the galaxy from us, the faster it was receding."

I have tried unsuccesfully to find some data that indicates the various Galaxies in the viewable universe are themselves expanding. There has been no indication that our Solar System or our Milky Way Galaxy have expanded that I can find. Possibly you know of something.

Another strange effect, to me, is that the farther away the objects are the faster we think they are going away from us.

It will not be popular but there is a consistency here that, to me, suggests a potential resolution to the problem.

1. We do not see expansion in our Gaxaxy.
2. Our Galaxy, and others, occupy areas in space that must otherwise be expanding as a part of the whole.
3. Locally where we can measure things accurately we can not confirm expansion within our Solar System.
4. The conclusion of expansion is based upon the appearance of light from distant stars.
5. The measure of that light shows the most distant stars moving away faster than those stars closer to us.

Assuming all of the above statements are correct what could account for our observing an apparent expansion of the universe?

I think it is the light we measure looking for the Doppler efect as our yardstick. A simple answer would be that light picks up speed the farther it travels. Greater speed provides a shift we interpret as expansion. Also this explains why most distant objects appear to go away faster because more distance equals greater light speed creating the illusion of greater velocity away from us.

Also the absence of documented expansion in objects we can see best tends to support this conjecture. Lastly we do observe Galaxies in collision and if from the start of things they were getting farther away that would not be taking place. That is my conjecture that happens to be a lot simpler that creating anti matter or dark matter or any other exotic stuff to explain what we see. Go get it.
jjw

Top
.
#11473 - 07/17/06 11:45 PM Re: The Expanding Universe,
dehammer Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/23/06
Posts: 1089
the simple explanation is that the big bang cause the galaxies that were made up of the material on the outside of the "bubble" of the explosion (the stuff the universe was made up of before it became atoms and energy) to move away faster than the stuff that was closer to the center. this can be seen in more mundane explosions. anything on the outside gets thrown farther than the stuff on the inside. since there is no friction in space the material kept moving away at the same speed.

in addition. the stuff that is farthest away is the stuff that is on the opposite side of that spot where the big bang occurred. therefore it will be moving away at a straight combination of the speed of our galaxy and its speed. anything that is not on the opposite side of that spot will be neither the farthest galaxies from us or the fastest moving in relation to us.

as far as galaxies solar systems expanding, they should not be (or at least not by much) due to gravity of all the rest of that galaxy or solar system. IF its stable, it will not be expanding. why would it.
_________________________
the more man learns, the more he realises, he really does not know anything.

Top
#11474 - 07/18/06 12:24 AM Re: The Expanding Universe,
DA Morgan Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
dehammer wrote:
"on the outside of the "bubble" of the explosion"

ROFL!

You just never cease to amaze. When I think you've dug a hole all the way to the center of the earth you proceed to dig still deeper.

"outside of the bubble"?

There is no outside.
There is no inside.
There are no sides.
There is no bubble.

Where do you get this stuff?
_________________________
DA Morgan

Top
#11475 - 07/18/06 12:35 PM Re: The Expanding Universe,
dehammer Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/23/06
Posts: 1089
why not read it for content for once. if there are terms for those they are rather scientific and ive not seen them. most likely they are equations that i have not seen.

it is known that in the first seconds after the big bang, all the matterial in the universe was something that is beyound our current form of understanding. it is also known that it was near if not actually a ball. since it was not matter or energy, a 'bubble' is good enough term for laymen. if you have a better term for it, give a reference that we may all learn of it, or shut up. your just making yourself look stupider than before. i did not think that was possible.
_________________________
the more man learns, the more he realises, he really does not know anything.

Top
#11476 - 07/18/06 08:44 PM Re: The Expanding Universe,
Blacknad Offline
Superstar

Registered: 10/05/05
Posts: 901
Loc: Coventry, England
Here we go again. This one's hilarious!!!!

Dehammer, what are you talking about? You need to set up your own science spoof website and just post stuff like this. It really tickled me.

Blacknad.

Top
#11477 - 07/18/06 09:17 PM Re: The Expanding Universe,
jjw Offline
Superstar

Registered: 09/07/05
Posts: 636
Loc: USA
Hi Dehammer:

I think the pro's refer to the "Bang" not as an explosion but as an expansion. An explosion implies maximum output to me expressed all at once to drop off as the power wanes. An expansion can have a variety of speeds dependent on the cause. No one seems to know the cause yet and that is one point of my post.

If some one is to argue that gravitation holds the Galaxoes together i can see their point but I must wonder why gravity is suficient on a small scale and would fail overall. When you weigh the issue from start to finish you must accept per the theory that at one time after the beginning all the stuff was closer together. If gravity was going to hold anything that was the best opportunity. If all space is expanding then why are not the objects in that space?

Any way this is nothing to get serious about.
jjw

Top
#11478 - 07/18/06 11:17 PM Re: The Expanding Universe,
DA Morgan Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
dehammer wrote:
"if there are terms for those they are rather scientific and ive not seen them."

The scientific term for inside or the scientific term for outside? Which word don't you understand?
There is neither.
_________________________
DA Morgan

Top
#11479 - 07/19/06 01:01 AM Re: The Expanding Universe,
dehammer Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/23/06
Posts: 1089
da, there is no outside and there is no inside? how do you go from under a roof and between walls on all sides, with a floor below, to where there is only sky above you and nothing but horizons all around and ground below?

it is generally accepted that when the big bang occured all the matterial were in the same area. it does not matter if that area would measure a foot by our measurements, or 15 light years. since the farthest galazies are billions of light years away, even 15 light years is a relatively small area. in the first few seconds of the big bang, no one has any terms to explain it, since things were occuring that our understanding of physics cant encompass. they do know that the universe did exist, which means that the matterial from the big bang had not yet filled it. therefore, there was inside the big bang place, and outside of it. that billion of light year space already existed. since there was no matterial there it was outside of it.

why dont you look up the word intergraty and stop trying to claim that you know everything when its obvious that IF you know oracle, its about all.

jjw, explosion, fast expansion, whats the difference. if there is one, then fine, call it an expansion. the point is that the matterial on the leading edge would be moving faster than the material not on the leading edge. that much is known. they do know that by the time it became energy and matter some of it was moving a lot faster than others parts.


Blacknad, i have the right to post what i understand of science as much as you. if you cant prove im wrong or at least give me your opinion of why im am, dont bother posting about what i post. i have da to give me unwanted and unneeded insults in place of reason.
_________________________
the more man learns, the more he realises, he really does not know anything.

Top
#11480 - 07/19/06 02:32 AM Re: The Expanding Universe,
DA Morgan Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
dehammer wrote:
"which means that the matterial from the big bang had not yet filled it."

This is not correct. There was NOTHING to be filled then: or ever. NOTHING!
_________________________
DA Morgan

Top
#11481 - 07/19/06 01:26 PM Re: The Expanding Universe,
dehammer Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/23/06
Posts: 1089
so space does not exist? there is nothing between universes? there is nothing between planets? I'm not talking about vacuum, I'm talking about space. space exist or nothing does.

either space existed or there has never been any expansion, only contraction. either the material of the big bang has been expanding into space, or its still the same size and matter and energy are getting smaller. show me the math that says the size of the big bang is the size it always was and there was not expansion. I've yet to hear of anyone that has every claimed (save you) that there was no space for the big bang to expand into.

if space does not exist for those galaxies to move into, how are they moving away from us. If it exist then there is space beyond the big bang and there has always been.

if the space exist now for those galaxies to move into, it existed then. if it existed then and the material of the big bang had not yet filled it. then it was outside of the big bang material.
_________________________
the more man learns, the more he realises, he really does not know anything.

Top
#11482 - 07/19/06 04:44 PM Re: The Expanding Universe,
DA Morgan Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
dehammer wrote:
"so space does not exist?"
"there is nothing between universes?"
"there is nothing between planets?"

These questions are not related to what I wrote. You said and I quote: "the matterial from the big bang had not yet filled it." That statement assumes there was something unfilled that remains to be filled. Your statement is incorrect.

And no there is no place in the universe that is not already filled with something.
_________________________
DA Morgan

Top
#11483 - 07/19/06 06:06 PM Re: The Expanding Universe,
dehammer Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/23/06
Posts: 1089
those question are related to the subject. if they dont relate to what you wrote, what you wrote does not relate. keep on subject of start your own thread.

so what was filling the space 1 billion light years away from the big bang when all the material and energy of the universe was inside the big bang and that was less that 15 light years in size.
how could there be something there when everything was inside the big bang, yet it had not expanded beyound a relatively small size.

your statement is uncorrect as it defies what scientist have stated before, that everything came from the big bang. if there were already stars there, it would have been a nova, rather than a big bang. that is the meaning of the big bang. everything was there and now its expanding. that means that something was outside of the area that had expanded already.

the material on the outside edge of the expansion moves faster than the material inside of that edge.
_________________________
the more man learns, the more he realises, he really does not know anything.

Top
#11484 - 07/19/06 10:00 PM Re: The Expanding Universe,
DA Morgan Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
dehammer wrote:
"so what was filling the space 1 billion light years away from the big bang"

Nothing. Because what you are describing never existed and violates every concept of modern day physics.

There was never anything even one angstrom away from the big bang. The big bang was and is all there ever was, all there is, and all there ever will be.

This material is well covered in my high school physics books and astronomy curricula.
_________________________
DA Morgan

Top
#11485 - 07/19/06 10:00 PM Re: The Expanding Universe,
DA Morgan Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
Sorry for the typo. That should be "most high school physics books."
_________________________
DA Morgan

Top
#11486 - 07/19/06 10:10 PM Re: The Expanding Universe,
dehammer Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/23/06
Posts: 1089
so your saying that space is created when matter expands into that space. where does the space come from that the big bang expanded into?

either empty space exist outside of the matter there, or it does not exist and matter can not expand into it
_________________________
the more man learns, the more he realises, he really does not know anything.

Top
#11487 - 07/20/06 02:10 AM Re: The Expanding Universe,
DA Morgan Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
dehammer wrote:
"so your saying that space is created when matter expands into that space."

No that is not what I am saying. Nor has that been the presumption of physics for more than 100 years.
You are still stuck in the concepts of inside and outside and edges which are not valid ways to understand the Big Bang.

The Big Bang was, and is, the expansion of the space-time metric. There is nothing into which it is expanding. You can not use your common everyday experience to comprehend or describe it.
_________________________
DA Morgan

Top
#11488 - 07/20/06 01:09 PM Re: The Expanding Universe,
dehammer Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/23/06
Posts: 1089
if there is nothing but the "space-time metric" how do you know space is expanding at all, maybe the space between the atoms is shrinking and the space is the same size as its always been. its not expanding outwards, were contracting inwards. see the problem there. your explanation does not fit the reality.

perhaps if everyone here had the high level math ability to discuss this in terms of mathematical equations it would be OK to use that explanation. unfortunately were stuck with "common everyday experience to comprehend or describe" this. using the terms we all know and understand the explanation i gave is as good as you can expect.

lets go with your explanation of it. there is nothing outside, but there is still the leading edge. and there is still stuff inside that leading edge (towards the center). by that, my explanation still stands up.

in other words your just trying to claim I'm to dumb to understand even the basic prekindergarten stuff while your some god of knowledge that has to explain everything else to everyone, save no one but you can understand it. IF you would ever get off your arrogant backside to bother to read for content you would see that what i said was as good an explanation as any that does not come from a doctor of physics who is somehow able to explain everything about this in terms that people who did not take college physics can understand.
_________________________
the more man learns, the more he realises, he really does not know anything.

Top
#11489 - 07/20/06 05:43 PM Re: The Expanding Universe,
DA Morgan Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
dehammer asks:
"if there is nothing but the "space-time metric" how do you know space is expanding at all"

The questions you are asking, seriously, are covered in high-school science curricula.

The answer ... the red shift. Which indicates that the further away things are the faster they are receding. Just like what you would see if you were in the center of a balloon full of dust watching it being blown up.
_________________________
DA Morgan

Top
#11490 - 07/20/06 06:27 PM Re: The Expanding Universe,
dehammer Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/23/06
Posts: 1089
it would also be the same if we were falling into the center.

the point is that you are just creating an argument for the sake of the argument and not discussing the point that was raised. that is "why are 'the further the galaxy from us, the faster it was receding.'"

if all you are trying to do is disrupt the conversation so that you can control everyone, go somewhere else. no one has any interest in proclaiming you emperor of the forum, you dont have control of this forum.
_________________________
the more man learns, the more he realises, he really does not know anything.

Top
#11491 - 07/20/06 10:42 PM Re: The Expanding Universe,
jjw Offline
Superstar

Registered: 09/07/05
Posts: 636
Loc: USA
Hi DA:

You advise"
"The answer ... the red shift. Which indicates that the further away things are the faster they are receding. Just like what you would see if you were in the center of a balloon full of dust watching it being blown up."

When you have print on a balloon and blow it up the print expands with rest of the balloon. If you want to confirm that result in the universe you should find the distant galaxies expanding along with the universe. Is there evidence for that? I have looked for some unsuccesfully.
jjw

Top
Page 1 of 4 1 2 3 4 >



Newest Members
debbieevans, bkhj, jackk, Johnmattison, RacerGT
865 Registered Users
Sponsor
Facebook

We're on Facebook
Join Our Group

Science a GoGo's Home Page | Terms of Use | Privacy Policy | Contact Us
Features | News | Books | Physics | Space | Climate Change | Health | Technology | Natural World

Copyright © 1998 - 2016 Science a GoGo and its licensors. All rights reserved.