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#11413 - 06/27/06 01:00 PM Intellectual demise of the West
extrasense Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 427
Loc: USA
Islamists are winning the spiritual argument, while West is relying on science.

Not a good plan.

ES

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#11414 - 06/27/06 04:38 PM Re: Intellectual demise of the West
dr_rocket Offline
Member

Registered: 12/06/06
Posts: 196
Loc: Palo Alto, CA, USA
Nonsense! Pure and simple.

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#11415 - 06/27/06 05:57 PM Re: Intellectual demise of the West
extrasense Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 427
Loc: USA
Quote:
Originally posted by dr_rocket:
Nonsense! Pure and simple.
5 star hotel aloquence smile

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#11416 - 06/27/06 06:06 PM Re: Intellectual demise of the West
peace Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 06/14/06
Posts: 15
Loc: India
science n spirituality r nt necessarily mutually exclusive

peace

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#11417 - 06/27/06 09:32 PM Re: Intellectual demise of the West
DA Morgan Offline
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Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
And if people would get over their "I'm right and everyone else is wrong" with religion and theology and nationality and culture and language ... and instead apply the scientific method ... this nonsense would not cease but certainly decrease.

As long as those with few IQ points but lots of adrenaline are writing the rules we will get to see contests of the Bush vs bin Laden type that benefit no one.
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DA Morgan

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#11418 - 06/27/06 10:36 PM Re: Intellectual demise of the West
dehammer Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/23/06
Posts: 1089
Quote:
Originally posted by extrasense:
Islamists are winning the spiritual argument, while West is relying on science.

Not a good plan.

ES
first off you have to define the spiritual arguement that they are supposedly winning. before you can claim they are winning it. as far as im concerned, they lost the arguement a long time ago.

thats an even worse plan.
_________________________
the more man learns, the more he realises, he really does not know anything.

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#11419 - 06/27/06 10:52 PM Re: Intellectual demise of the West
jjw Offline
Superstar

Registered: 09/07/05
Posts: 636
Loc: USA
Hi es:

You suggest:
"Islamists are winning the spiritual argument, while West is relying on science.

Not a good plan."

People steeped in spiritual lore can not argue with science effectively because they are traveling on different mental tracks.

If you must kill your self and others to make a point you are beyound spiritual and scientific help. You are creating a real Hell on Earth.
jjw

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#11420 - 06/28/06 01:48 AM Re: Intellectual demise of the West
extrasense Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 427
Loc: USA
Quote:
Originally posted by peace:
science n spirituality r nt necessarily mutually exclusive
I do agree with your point in principle.
However the reality is that West is sinking into the swamp of godlessness, idolatry and phariseeism, after having been for 2000 years sustained by ideas of Christianity.
Science does not show any interest in spirituality beside attempts to make it impossible.

ES

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#11421 - 06/28/06 01:56 AM Re: Intellectual demise of the West
extrasense Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 427
Loc: USA
Quote:
Originally posted by jjw004:
Hi es:

You suggest:
"Islamists are winning the spiritual argument, while West is relying on science.Not a good plan."

People steeped in spiritual lore can not argue with science effectively because they are traveling on different mental tracks.
I think this is a delusion of the science.
It is not that science in principle is uncapable of the analysis of spiruality, although traditionally it fails in that.
The correct analysis of spirituality would conclude that it is like art, and can not be taken apart and still be itself.

ES

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#11422 - 06/28/06 04:19 AM Re: Intellectual demise of the West
DA Morgan Offline
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Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
extraNONsense wrote:
"However the reality is that West is sinking into the swamp of godlessness, idolatry and phariseeism"

And the solution, of course, is to throw away logical and rational thinking and accept on faith our saviour Jesus Christ. Thank you for clearing that up.

Who the heck needs freedom of speech, freedom of thought, and all that democracy nonsense.

So extrasense ... who decides what is godlessness? You? who decides what is idolatry? I think statues of Jesus are idols ... so lets destroy them all just like the Taliban did to the Buddhist statues in Afghanistan. And phariseeism? Wow. I guess you'll have to help us all understand that one too.
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#11423 - 06/28/06 10:52 AM Re: Intellectual demise of the West
Johnny Boy Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/29/05
Posts: 330
Loc: South Africa
"Spirituality" has always declined when organised religion got their way. Dogma becomes then untouchable and one is not allowed to question it in any way. Therefore one has had the Spanish iquisition, the Taliban, Osama Bin Laden, etc. Even our scientific community is succumbing to protecting scientific dogma instead of welcoming new ideas; and analysing them objectively. There can be no personal spiritual life if you are not allowed to question and to analyse. It is thus highly doubtful that Christianity has sustained us for 2000 years or that Islam is now "winnning" the spiritual battle. Christian countries at least allow their citizen's to convert to Islam if they want to. In Islamic countries you are killed when you convert from Islam to Christianity. Is this winning the battle for sprituality?
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#11424 - 06/28/06 11:56 AM Re: Intellectual demise of the West
extrasense Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 427
Loc: USA
Quote:
Originally posted by Johnny Boy:
"Spirituality" has always declined when organised religion got their way.
Nonsense.
Religion have done its job.
Science is envious, since the area of spirituality escapes it.
Organized religion is only religion possible.

ES

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#11425 - 06/28/06 01:07 PM Re: Intellectual demise of the West
Johnny Boy Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/29/05
Posts: 330
Loc: South Africa
Quote:
Originally posted by extrasense:
Quote:
Originally posted by Johnny Boy:
"Spirituality" has always declined when organised religion got their way.
Nonsense.
Religion have done its job.
Science is envious, since the area of spirituality escapes it.
Organized religion is only religion possible.

ES
There is no greater spiritual pursuit than to try and understand the universe by testing your ideas experimentally. As Einstein has said: "I want to know how God did it". There can be no greater threat to spirituality than to argue that some questions should not be asked. Organised religion still has a long way to go before it can compete with the "wonder of doing science". There is and never will be a greater miracle than our ability to do the latter. It is THE way to discover God.
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#11426 - 06/28/06 10:33 PM Re: Intellectual demise of the West
dehammer Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/23/06
Posts: 1089
Quote:
Originally posted by extrasense:
...the reality is that West is sinking into the swamp of godlessness, idolatry and phariseeism, after having been for 2000 years sustained by ideas of Christianity.
1st off you falling under the influence of the history rewriting christian church. the majority of the word has never been christian, save in the minds of those who would rewrite history. even in the american war of independance, the majority were not chrisitan. Washington, Handcock, Jefferson, and many others were deitist, not christian, but the revisionist would have you believe that every american before 1900 was pure christian (at least all the historical good guys). this has never been the reality. While there have been periods where the goverments of many of the nations of the west were christians, and the only relegions that you could publicly claim (without getting burned at the stake for it) was christanity, that does not mean that the entire west has been nothing but christian for 2000 years, not that it was the main push for our civiliation.

secondly, you assuming the "godlessness, idolatry and phariseeism" is any worse now that it has every been. there is little difference now that it was 100 years ago, save in the writings of the christian revisionist.

Quote:
Science does not show any interest in spirituality beside attempts to make it impossible.ES
actually there are christian scientist, as well as wiccan, muslim, jewish..... infact there are few religions that dont allow science, and in many cases they are finding more and more (for those who believe) that there is something connecting it all. ill leave it to you what you choise to believe that is.
_________________________
the more man learns, the more he realises, he really does not know anything.

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#11427 - 06/28/06 10:40 PM Re: Intellectual demise of the West
dehammer Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/23/06
Posts: 1089
Quote:
Originally posted by extrasense:
Quote:
Originally posted by Johnny Boy:
"Spirituality" has always declined when organised religion got their way.
Nonsense.
Religion have done its job.
Science is envious, since the area of spirituality escapes it.
Organized religion is only religion possible.

ES
if religions have done their job, then why are we still thinking. your not allowed to think in orgainized religion, you have to accept what others tell you without a hint of question.

if science is so envious, why are their scientist that are religious.

its possible to do anything religiously, even sin. spirituality requires an understanding, not blindly repeating what others have told you. that leads to science. understanding science and you can understand spirituality better. get locksteped into orgainized religions and you have no clue waht spirituality is.
_________________________
the more man learns, the more he realises, he really does not know anything.

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#11428 - 06/28/06 11:08 PM Re: Intellectual demise of the West
extrasense Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 427
Loc: USA
Quote:
Originally posted by Johnny Boy:
religion still has a long way to go
Can science say : Do not steal?

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#11429 - 06/29/06 05:04 AM Re: Intellectual demise of the West
DA Morgan Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
extrasense asks:
"Can science say : Do not steal?"

Yes it can. And yes it has. We call it game theory. And we have conclusively proven that there are strategies that lead to successful outcomes. And they correspond with ethical behaviour.

You need to understand something rather basic. Humans are biological computing machines. They may not calculate in binary on silicon. But calculate they do. Nothing more ... and nothing less.
_________________________
DA Morgan

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#11430 - 06/29/06 09:29 AM Re: Intellectual demise of the West
peace Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 06/14/06
Posts: 15
Loc: India
'you are nt allowed to think in organized religion, you have to accept wht others tell you without a hint of question'

i don't quite agree...hinduism, an ancient home-grown faith in india (it is not called a 'religion'), has no heretics to cast out, doesnot have- fixed dogmas, one book, one god, doesnot believe in forcing any one to adopt any one school of thought n is open to all faiths...

any science tht being done for good of humanity, animal, plants, earth etc is an act of spiritualism..ya frentic patenting by scientists n organizations would not fit the bill...

dehammer, this time i have written complete spellings smile , i quite agree with you here "understanding science n u cn understand spirituality. get locksteped into organized religions........"

peace

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#11431 - 06/29/06 02:20 PM Re: Intellectual demise of the West
Johnny Boy Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/29/05
Posts: 330
Loc: South Africa
Quote:
Originally posted by peace:
ya frentic patenting by scientists n organizations would not fit the bill...

peace
Does frantic money collection by organised religions fit the bill? Remember Jim Baker's "theme park". Is the Vatican not also just a unique Italian theme park? And Mekka?

At least when scientists patent, they try and ensure that they get some credit for what they have done. If they do not patent, their work is stolen by the very pious people who actively support organised religion.
_________________________
http://www.cathodixx.com

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#11432 - 06/29/06 02:31 PM Re: Intellectual demise of the West
soilguy Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/28/05
Posts: 414
Loc: North Carolina
Quote:
Originally posted by extrasense:
Islamists are winning the spiritual argument, while West is relying on science.

Not a good plan.

ES
I don't see any evidence that Islamists are "winning the spiritual argument," nor does the West rely on science (witness the current push to have pseudo-science taught in biology classes in the US).

Fundamentalists of both the Christian and Islamic variety worship a God of the Gaps and are perturbed whenever science investigates those gaps.
_________________________
When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross."
--S. Lewis

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