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#105 - 10/22/04 03:54 AM Species Harming Great Lakes' Food Web
Anonymous
Unregistered


Species Harming Great Lakes' Food Web

"TRAVERSE CITY, Mich. - Invasive species appear to be killing off crucial segments of the Great Lakes food web, from large predator fish to tiny freshwater shrimp, an environmental group said Thursday.

The collapse has dire implications for the lakes' $7 billion commercial and sport fishery and the regional economy as a whole, said a report issued by the National Wildlife Federation."

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=st...c/lake_invasion

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#106 - 10/22/04 10:44 PM Re: Species Harming Great Lakes' Food Web
Uncle Al Offline
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Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 540
Loc: Southern California
Quote:
"Es mejor morir en sus pies que vivir en sus rodillas."...Emiliano Zapata
"Si usted se para o se arrodilla, es preferible tener al otro tipo muere," Uncle Al.
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http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/qz3.pdf

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#107 - 10/22/04 11:31 PM Re: Species Harming Great Lakes' Food Web
Anonymous
Unregistered


"Si you for or kneels down, is preferable to have to the other type dies, "

Somehow I think this lost a little something in the translation. laugh

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#108 - 10/24/04 03:33 AM Re: Species Harming Great Lakes' Food Web
snipz Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 10/23/04
Posts: 7
Loc: USA
Hadn't thought that zebra mussels and suchlike exotica had knees.
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#109 - 10/31/04 12:44 AM Re: Species Harming Great Lakes' Food Web
ben ito Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 10/23/04
Posts: 10
I live in a redwood forest and walk by trees that are 2000 years old.

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#110 - 11/13/04 01:06 AM Re: Species Harming Great Lakes' Food Web
Spiro Offline
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Registered: 11/12/04
Posts: 3
Loc: Chicago
How are these invasive species transported? Anyways, does it have something to do with cargo ships?
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#111 - 11/13/04 03:58 AM Re: Species Harming Great Lakes' Food Web
Anonymous
Unregistered


In general most of these exotic invasive species are transported in the ballast water of cargo ships. They take on ballast water that contains the larval forms of the species, and when they dock in the Great Lakes, they flush their ballast water to gain freeboard for the cargo they are taking on. The little larvae then mature and take up residence in the Great Lakes, where the ecosystem has no way to control them, and they multiply unchecked and unhindered.

Fish like the Northern Snakehead are imported as food or sometimes aquarium fish. The Snakehead can live a long time out of water, and brought in on ice they are still alive when they hit the market. People buy them and change their mind about cooking them, and they either flush them or take them to a nearby pond to release them. Snakeheads are particularly pernicious, as they can crawl out of water and make their way across land to another body of water. In North America they have no natural predators and no natural controls on their population, and they eat a lot.
Native fish populations are in danger from them.

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#112 - 11/15/04 04:28 PM Re: Species Harming Great Lakes' Food Web
kit_kat Offline
Member

Registered: 11/02/04
Posts: 37
Loc: Actually in Paris, France
Amaranth, I think this is a bit far fetched. This is true that native ecosystem is badly injured in your example but life act always in the direction of a new equilibrium of all actors of the webfood. This could take several years or decade to go in this direction but a predominant species don't stand on this status very long time, if you recall to the fossil documentation.
We must wait for an equilibrium to appear. If man put his nose in that, the result will be worse.

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#113 - 11/17/04 12:20 AM Re: Species Harming Great Lakes' Food Web
Anonymous
Unregistered


It's very naiive to assume that predominant species don't stay that way very long. I guess you don't think zebra and wildbeasts are predominant. Elephants of both types have been around for a very long time. Same for sharks and crocodiles. It's all in your perspective, I guess.

Granted that a new equilibrium will eventually establish itself. But is the new equilibrium something we can live with? Check out the results in the state of Florida of the introduction of the water Hyacinth (http://aquat1.ifas.ufl.edu/hyacin2.html) and the walking catfish (http://www.flmnh.ufl.edu/fish/Gallery/Descript/WalkingCatfish/WalkingCatfish.html).

When the catfish are so thick on the road that it is dangerously slick with their crushed, oozing bodies, I'd think it's time to consider doing something. It's been over 40 years since the walking catfish was introduced to Florida. There doesn't seem to be an equilibrium happening.

The water Hyacinth was introduced into Florida in the 1880's. One hundred twenty years later it is called "one of the worst weeds in the world--aquatic or terrestrial." I don't see any equilibrium happening with it.

You think I'm far-fetched. I'm a Biologist. I'm also a realist. I've seen first-hand the devastation that an introduced species can cause.

If the above two examples aren't enough for you, check out the green ash borer infestation in the northeastern US. Millions of trees have been destroyed already. Millions more will fall. All on account of a little metallic green beetle from Asia. Ash trees all over North America are at risk. What kind of equilbrium do you think that will reach?

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#114 - 11/17/04 09:18 AM Re: Species Harming Great Lakes' Food Web
kit_kat Offline
Member

Registered: 11/02/04
Posts: 37
Loc: Actually in Paris, France
Amaranth, a biological equilibrium is long to obtain, even nothing (population, genes...) is really in perfect equilibrium. Also, I have many examples of man foolish environmental changes from Europe too.
You suggest I'm naive, as you want, I prefer hanging on the definition of living things that ARE manifestation of life. I'm speaking about life, not human profit of natual ressources.
What is the most respecteful point of view ?

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#115 - 12/04/04 01:07 AM Re: Species Harming Great Lakes' Food Web
Anonymous
Unregistered


"What is the most respecteful point of view ?"

Your question cannot be answered as stated. The most respectful point of view with respect to what? The fish or other non-native species? The ecosystem? The people who have to live with the consequences? The people who (a) created the initial debacle and/or (b)are inconvenienced or who lose their lives or livelihood because of it? Would you want to run off the highway and get killed one moonlit night because the road was slick from walking catfish slime? In areas where the water hyacinth holds sway, neither light nor oxygen reaches the water below them; vast areas of bayou and swampland are rendered uninhabitable beneath their gentian-studded verdure. Sediments become anaerobic, fetid odors swell forth, and all that was is no more. Biodiversity goes as close to zero as it is possible for it to go.

What we need is a virus or a plague that attacks the water hyacinth and only the water hyacinth. Same for the walking catfish and the northern snakehead. The time is coming when it will be so.
Think "Designer Genes"!

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#116 - 12/07/04 01:22 PM Re: Species Harming Great Lakes' Food Web
kit_kat Offline
Member

Registered: 11/02/04
Posts: 37
Loc: Actually in Paris, France
Amaranth, I've detected an opposit view point about this discussion and I can't clear the whole of your argument because they are realistic.
My view point was settled on the "life" as quantitative not qualitative. Yes, I guess human don't fancy low oxigen based life because of the less diversity and the sulfid smelling. But this is life after all.

The important point is to promote life in a place, whatever life it is. Never mind.

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#117 - 12/07/04 07:39 PM Re: Species Harming Great Lakes' Food Web
Anonymous
Unregistered


Originally posted by kit_kat:
"Amaranth, I've detected an opposit view point about this discussion and I can't clear the whole of your argument because they are realistic."

Opposing points of view are what make life interesting. If we all agreed with one another, there could be no discussion and no change, no growth. The trick is to disagree politely and graciously, without resorting to hostility.


"My view point was settled on the "life" as quantitative not qualitative. Yes, I guess human don't fancy low oxigen based life because of the less diversity and the sulfid smelling. But this is life after all."

Then your argument is that the preferred form of life would be the water hyacinth because of its incredible fecundity (quantity), notwithstanding that it destroys everything but itself, destroys the native flora and fauna by rendering the water column anoxic/hypoxic, and is of absolutely no recreational, aesthetic, or economic value (quality)?

"The important point is to promote life in a place, whatever life it is. Never mind."

Are you saying that if a thing is alive it has right to live, no matter what it does, or if it is destroying a habitat that previously was (a) stable, (b) productive, and (c) providing a platform for diverse species including man to survive and thrive?

In an ecosystem there has to be a give and take, reciprocity, interaction. In its originating ecosystem, Water Hyacinth must have had to cope with some fairly extensive grazing, judging by its adaptation of phenomenal growth rate. In Florida, that pressure is removed, and we get this monoculture that takes over everything.

If you are interesed in the sake of life, any life at all, for the sake of life, sheer numbers, go for bacteria. You can get millions, even billions, of cells in a cubic centimeter. So let's put everyone in a blender and let the germs take over. It's the logical extension of "Right to Life".

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#118 - 12/08/04 07:13 AM Re: Species Harming Great Lakes' Food Web
kit_kat Offline
Member

Registered: 11/02/04
Posts: 37
Loc: Actually in Paris, France
Amaranth, life history tend to replicate life events. An exclusive bacteria ruled world is not the monopole of which was supposed to be since early stage of earth right up to the uppermost proterozo?c horizons, but right up to nowadays taking account that all superior life forms are symbiots of bacteria. No primitive eukariote or mammalian can thrive without this precious colaboration.
Reading your post, I see how disgusting for you is this new equilibrium, claiming the irreversible loss of the original biodiversity and his equilibrium. Dry up your tears because this is only a very small aspect of the main ecosystem destruction generated by human cupidity. We got the "even garden" in Europe, now we have a wharehouse of ghost diversities. Yesterday a man was charged to have kill one of the last bear we have. His advocate want to complain legitim defence. You'll find my conter-example that pathetic because it is. Humain failled the only right he have on this planet, namely preserve original biodiversity. What's next ? A brazilian will grew a tree or a imam will own a McDonald in Irak ?

Sad century.

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