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#10472 - 01/12/06 08:35 PM When we have a pill for murderers....
Blacknad Offline
Superstar

Registered: 10/05/05
Posts: 901
Loc: Coventry, England
Richard Dawkins likens a murderer to a broken down car:

'Basil Fawlty, British television's hotelier from hell created by the immortal John Cleese, was at the end of his tether when his car broke down and wouldn't start. He gave it fair warning, counted to three, gave it one more chance, and then acted. "Right! I warned you. You've had this coming to you!" He got out of the car, seized a tree branch and set about thrashing the car within an inch of its life. Of course we laugh at his irrationality. Instead of beating the car, we would investigate the problem. Is the carburettor flooded? Are the sparking plugs or distributor points damp? Has it simply run out of gas? Why do we not react in the same way to a defective man: a murderer, say, or a rapist? Why don't we laugh at a judge who punishes a criminal, just as heartily as we laugh at Basil Fawlty? Or at King Xerxes who, in 480 BC, sentenced the rough sea to 300 lashes for wrecking his bridge of ships? Isn't the murderer or the rapist just a machine with a defective component? Or a defective upbringing? Defective education? Defective genes?'

- http://www.edge.org/q2006/q06_9.html

I suppose most reading this thread would concur with this kind of reductionist view of humans.

In essence he is saying we should dispense with blame and simply fix a murderer or rapist as we would a car.

So the idea of punishment is a moot point - if we ever develop a quick fix for a sex offender then the fix should be applied and the matter is ended.

What happens to punishment as a deterrent - showing people there are consequences for their behaviour?

Do you agree there should be no blame, and therefore no responsibility?

Do you think that science can solve this issue, by providing a cure - like a car that needs the engine balancing; we will rebalance people's brain chemistry?

- http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/3007342.stm

If this does happen, can the Mother of a murdered child expect to see the murderer walk free and unhindered, after undergoing a quick fix?

If she rails against this and wants revenge, would we have to recondition her irrational thought processes as well?

Regards,

Blacknad.

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#10473 - 01/13/06 12:34 AM Re: When we have a pill for murderers....
Rusty Rockets Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/04/05
Posts: 175
Is there a difference between a defective human compelled to kill because of their brain state, and someone who kills in a calculated "sane" manner? Should all killings be considered the result of a defective mind? What about war and other such sanctioned killings? Would a quick fix pill still allow the "patient" to be able to distinguish between killings that are considered either right or wrong?

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#10474 - 01/13/06 02:58 PM Re: When we have a pill for murderers....
Justine Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/07/05
Posts: 191
If the pill was available to individuals at first recognition of overt violent behavior it could prevent the crimes before they occurred.

It would be a serious decision to make by the individual and their family before they took the pill because it could drastically and irrevocalbly alter their personality. Maybe a year to six month protocal....first offering counseling and other psychotropic medication, and such with serious discussion and explaination of the pills effects.

Prisoners who accepted the treatment would have to be housed seperately from prisoners who refused. Plus, support groups and therapy following the consumption of the pill. And for a long time there would still need to be a seperate prison for inmates who have finished the treatment but still have to serve their time (punishment)

But there would be temptations.....I can think of someone in my life I'd love to slip that pill to...just to take the edge off their verbal abuse.
_________________________
~Justine~

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#10475 - 01/13/06 08:29 PM Re: When we have a pill for murderers....
Blacknad Offline
Superstar

Registered: 10/05/05
Posts: 901
Loc: Coventry, England
And for a long time there would still need to be a seperate prison for inmates who have finished the treatment but still have to serve their time (punishment)

- Justine, Dawkins advocates no punishment - that's the whole point - it is as silly (he says), as beating your broken-down car with a branch.

Why punish someone for being broken? He says, 'simply fix them'.

The real issue here is could we dispense with punishment (or justice)? If it was a five minute procedure to fix a murderer or child molester could we really envisage being true to what Dawkins says and simply let people walk away without consequences? If you accept what Dawkins says, it makes sense - but could we live with it?

Blacknad.

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#10476 - 01/13/06 09:53 PM Re: When we have a pill for murderers....
RM Offline
Superstar

Registered: 10/07/05
Posts: 560
Loc: London
Forget pills! Just kill the murderers and rapists at birth! -There's a 'rational soultion' for ya!
Then, anyone who commits a crime in-spite of this (eg. kills someone) is merely a sane person who killed someone for a sane reason. Do what you wan't with them, punish them, help them. The normal ones are not my concern. It's the bloody phychopaths that are the real issue - JUST KILL THEM!!!

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#10477 - 01/13/06 10:39 PM Re: When we have a pill for murderers....
Philege Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/30/04
Posts: 184
Loc: United Kingdom
For once I agree with Rob, those who commit capital crimes must be dealth with through Capital punishment. Bring back the death penalty! Or castrate all rapists!

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#10478 - 01/13/06 10:40 PM Re: When we have a pill for murderers....
Philege Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/30/04
Posts: 184
Loc: United Kingdom
Giff Zem Ze treetment!

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#10479 - 01/13/06 11:30 PM Re: When we have a pill for murderers....
Blacknad Offline
Superstar

Registered: 10/05/05
Posts: 901
Loc: Coventry, England
Just kill the murderers and rapists at birth!

- Er, that may be a little premature. A genetic propensity to commit crime is in no way a sure indicator.

Blacknad.

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#10480 - 01/14/06 01:13 PM Re: When we have a pill for murderers....
RM Offline
Superstar

Registered: 10/07/05
Posts: 560
Loc: London
So what? Why take chances? I'm certain that if your wife were to be abducted, raped, tortured and murdered by one of these sickos you would change your views very rapidly.

If one of my relatives left me with a live, faulty grenade from some war to remember them by, I'm sorry, but despite it's sentimental value, I'd ged rid of the thing.

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#10481 - 01/16/06 09:25 PM Re: When we have a pill for murderers....
Blacknad Offline
Superstar

Registered: 10/05/05
Posts: 901
Loc: Coventry, England
If one of those Sickos tried to abduct my wife at the moment it would be them I would worry about - not her. They might just possibly live to regret trying to abduct a young fiery Arab with PMT smile

Blacknad.

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#10482 - 01/17/06 07:29 PM Re: When we have a pill for murderers....
Justine Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/07/05
Posts: 191
I agree with Dawkins.
_________________________
~Justine~

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#10483 - 01/17/06 09:49 PM Re: When we have a pill for murderers....
Anonymous
Unregistered


Why not just give everybody the pill along with the other regular series of vaccinations in childhood? That way we could intervene prophylactically and save society much pain and anguish, not to mention time hunting down and trying murderers. What parent would refuse a treatment to insure that their child will never be a murderer or a rapist?

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#10484 - 01/18/06 01:24 PM Re: When we have a pill for murderers....
RM Offline
Superstar

Registered: 10/07/05
Posts: 560
Loc: London
I WOULD -if it were born with the right genes to make it a psycho -not that those run in my family.
What comfort is it that whether or not your child will kill someone -(for no real reason!) is dependant on pills? It is a hassle, what if they decide to stop taking them? Better just eradicate the baby before the parent can get emotionally attached.
I doubt can be such a pill that will alter your genes in this drastic way from only being taken once. But if there can be -I agree with you.

?The man I love above any man on Earth was involved in a murder. I'm awful glad he still exists.?

I am assuming this man is not a psycho. Real people that commit murders for say revenge is understandable. All I want rid of is the deranged lunatics. If this man you speak of is a deranged lunatic, then I?m sorry, but I don?t care whether you love him or not ?he is a menace to society.

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#10485 - 01/18/06 02:41 PM Re: When we have a pill for murderers....
Eduardo Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/10/06
Posts: 106
Loc: Guildford, UK
Quote:
Originally posted by Rob:
Better just eradicate the baby before the parent can get emotionally attached.
I don't think someone who continually proposes a baby killing agenda is fit to judge anything.

Quote:
Originally posted by Rob:
JUST KILL THEM
Have you any idea how much like a psychopath you sound?
_________________________
Eduardo
Resistance is futile. Capacitance is efficacious.
There are 10 types of people in the world... Those who understand binary, and those who don't.

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#10486 - 01/18/06 02:58 PM Re: When we have a pill for murderers....
Justine Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/07/05
Posts: 191
It would be a long time before society could adjust to not inflicting punishment for a crime.

Prisons these days COULD emphasis rehabilitation, but they are really only for punishment and segregation.
But if rehab was as easy and inexpensive as a one dose pill, I'm sure America would give it a try...but they'd still want the purpetrators to suffer some punishment for their crimes.

It would take a highly evolved individual to suffer violent crime and quickly forgive the "fixed" criminal. Even for someone higher minded...there's still the natural grief process that takes at least a year to fully comprehend what happened let alone forgive it.
_________________________
~Justine~

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#10487 - 01/19/06 02:09 AM Re: When we have a pill for murderers....
DA Morgan Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
How about considering the possibility that our ancestors might have had a far more appropriate solution: Excommunication.

Lets buy Greenland from the Eskimos. If 50,000 Greenlanders can survive there then others can too. Try 'em. Convict 'em. Give 'em a sleeping bag, a ten, a knife and a parachute ... in that order.

Why is it our problem that someone can not live within society's rules?

Why is it our obligation to feed, clothe, and house them?

Why should we let them back into our society if they have proven (three strikes and you're out) that they can't control themselves?
_________________________
DA Morgan

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#10488 - 01/19/06 09:54 AM Re: When we have a pill for murderers....
Eduardo Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/10/06
Posts: 106
Loc: Guildford, UK
Quote:
Originally posted by DA Morgan:
Lets buy Greenland from the Eskimos. If 50,000 Greenlanders can survive there then others can too. Try 'em. Convict 'em. Give 'em a sleeping bag, a ten, a knife and a parachute ... in that order.
We in Britain did that already, we called it Australia.

When I went there on holiday a while ago, I was asked at passport control whether I had a criminal record. I replied that I didn't realise it was still necessary. wink
_________________________
Eduardo
Resistance is futile. Capacitance is efficacious.
There are 10 types of people in the world... Those who understand binary, and those who don't.

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#10489 - 01/19/06 01:34 PM Re: When we have a pill for murderers....
RM Offline
Superstar

Registered: 10/07/05
Posts: 560
Loc: London
"I don't think someone who continually proposes a baby killing agenda is fit to judge anything.

Have you any idea how much like a psychopath you sound?"

Sigh, another person blinded by the reflex of morals. First of all, let me remind you that these psychopaths enjoy brutally killing other human beings for NO REASON. They cruise around in their cars and pick out a victim thinking "that young girl would be nice to torture and then kill - eventually BWA HA HA!" Do you really consider them to be human? This is a kill-or-be-killed world and mercy for humans may be all fine and dandy -but mercy for animals and psychopaths?! Do we need them? Do we like them? Do they need our help? Well the only way to help these scums of the earth is through genetic engineering, which you as a moral person would undoubtedly deem wrong. Just as wrong as killing these sick people at birth?

No Erduado I am not a psychopath, but if I was, I would be killing your baby for fun. As opposed to killing a baby to save your baby. Don't let your first priority be morals, let it be sense.

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#10490 - 01/19/06 04:10 PM Re: When we have a pill for murderers....
Eduardo Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/10/06
Posts: 106
Loc: Guildford, UK
'Sigh, another person blinded by the reflex of morals.'

Yes, what a wonderful place the world would be under your reign of amoral logic and precognitive justice.

You're right of course 'This is a kill-or-be-killed world'.
I had to kill 4 people on my way to the shops this very morning, the road was littered with ninjas and psychopaths, it's a real bind.

Do you know how psychopaths minds often work?

They transfer their violent urges onto other people, demonise them, then sublimate those urges by attacking those people, at first verbally, often using violent imagery, then ultimately physically.

Ring any bells?

'No Erduado I am not a psychopath'

That's what they ALL say.
_________________________
Eduardo
Resistance is futile. Capacitance is efficacious.
There are 10 types of people in the world... Those who understand binary, and those who don't.

Top
#10491 - 01/19/06 04:13 PM Re: When we have a pill for murderers....
Justine Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/07/05
Posts: 191
This string has degraded into blind prejudice. Sociology classes anyone????? Do we need to go back to school in order have an intelligent discussion on societal subjects or can we pry our minds open a little by ourselves?

What happened to the ultimate wisdom of mercy?
_________________________
~Justine~

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