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#10442 - 10/11/05 10:10 PM Can we live in 'The Matrix' ?
Blacknad Offline
Superstar

Registered: 10/05/05
Posts: 901
Loc: Coventry, England
My questions are these:

Will we one day have 'Matrix' like full emersion Virtual Reality?

Will computers be able to work out what electrical signals are being sent to the brain when I stroke my leg, or record the pattern, and then feed it back into my brain, to make me experience someone stroking me?

If so, when computers are able to perceive their surroundings well enough they will be able to trick my brain into thinking I am somewhere else?

And will they be able to mimic the way the brain lays down memory and insert memories for me? or even rearrange memories and treat PTSD by removing the offending memories?

Will I be able to buy a PhD in Theoretical Physics, shove it in, and then start arguing with you lot about it?


'I know Kung-fu'

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#10443 - 10/11/05 10:36 PM Re: Can we live in 'The Matrix' ?
Uncle Al Offline
Superstar

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 540
Loc: Southern California
Religion is crap. All that exists is what you observe as you observe it. There is no overseeing entity, universal right or wrong, day of reckoning, or anything after death except decomposition. There are no space aliens, ghosts, supernatural phenomena, or miracles. Hitler and Gandhi are only distinguishable by memories of their lives. Both are now worm food. Get over it and become human.

Be your own cause (and patronize a more literate reading list).
_________________________
Uncle Al
http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/
(Toxic URL! Unsafe for children and most mammals)
http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/qz3.pdf

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#10444 - 10/11/05 11:21 PM Re: Can we live in 'The Matrix' ?
Blacknad Offline
Superstar

Registered: 10/05/05
Posts: 901
Loc: Coventry, England
The problem is that you cannot know for sure, however much you might like to.

You know the old idea - that a guy who dislikes gays is only like it because he is insecure about his own sexuality.

The same can be said of some athiests. If you are willing to leave it alone, I am too.

Regards,

Blacknad.

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#10445 - 10/12/05 01:22 AM Re: Can we live in 'The Matrix' ?
Anonymous
Unregistered


UA, your response is a non-sequitir. Nothing in the post above gave any hint of religion. Why are you bringing it up?

Just curious.

"Amaranth"

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#10446 - 10/12/05 02:35 AM Re: Can we live in 'The Matrix' ?
Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/21/05
Posts: 127
Loc: does it really matter?
Another possible use of the brain computer interface is victims of paralysis could use this technology to bypass the damaged areas of their brain and regain use of their own limbs.

http://www.lce.hut.fi/research/bci/

'We must develop as quickly as possible technologies that make possible a direct connection between brain and computer,
so that artificial brains contribute to human intelligence rather than opposing it.' -- Stephen Hawking
_________________________
"My God, it's full of stars!" -2010

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#10447 - 10/20/05 04:48 PM Re: Can we live in 'The Matrix' ?
RM Offline
Superstar

Registered: 10/07/05
Posts: 560
Loc: London
Uncle Al,
At first I respected you for being an atheist, this proved that you could think things through and come to logical conclusions (unless you were raised as one). Then I read this; "There are no space aliens, ghosts, supernatural phenomena, or miracles." This means you are what I call a 'total sceptic' and immediately dismiss any idea that fits into a certain category that you have created, without actually thinking about the idea. (Please correct me if I am wrong)

I disagree only with the space alien thing. It seems very probable, almost certain that DNA molecules could be formed elsewhere in the universe than on earth.

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#10448 - 10/20/05 05:27 PM Re: Can we live in 'The Matrix' ?
Xennos Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 10/18/05
Posts: 15
Loc: Your Mind
as for the question nad ..

although Kevin Warwick is a self publicist but he has some good points, short of giving your total self to a machine to run you and only have virtual stimulation provided to you i dont think it wouldn?t be widely accepted, in my opinion people would gravitate towards the idea that grafting machines to us, so we are ultimately in control, we like control and to give that up would be a very touchy concept for most people, it would be better to use them as tools instead of getting piggybacked through time my them, I would rather be out looking and doing stuff in the real world, even thought it can be simulated with in a computer.
But really there will come a time where grafting devices to you eyes and ears becomes custom even a brain upload could be possable with the way technology is accelerating

as for aliens there in the billions adnd billions of stars have to be a planet like earth able to support life if we are then only life i feel sorry..

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#10449 - 11/15/05 01:55 AM Re: Can we live in 'The Matrix' ?
asm Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 08/11/05
Posts: 16
Blacknad: Don't ever listen to Uncle Al.
Yes, it is unbelievably possible for us to live in a Matrix type environment. Of course these machines wouldn't be like we use today simply
because the technology for as small as we;ve
gotten the hardware isn't fast enough. A 'cluster' of quantum computers could easily do the job
however once that level of technology is reached.
Along with the mysteriousness of quantum communication, who's to say it won't be possible to one day remotely exploit that functionality
for mind control? That would be a Matrix as well.

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#10450 - 11/15/05 04:08 AM Re: Can we live in 'The Matrix' ?
DA Morgan Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
bladnad wrote:
"The problem is that you cannot know for sure, however much you might like to."

and unfortunately asm is incorrect in that Uncle Al is correct and it is, to quote him, pure unadulterated "crap."

The proof is actually rather straight forward.

Not a single bit of evidence exists that supports the claims of any religion. And ALL religions ask that they be accepted as an article of blind faith rather than offering up a single bit of physical evidence.

Lets see what the wisest of men have to say about it:

"The way to see by Faith is to shut the eyes of Reason."
- Benjamin Franklin in Poor Richard 1758

"Faith may be defined briefly as an illogical belief in the occurrence of the improbable."
- HL Mencken Prejudices (1922)

"Faith is believing something you know ain't true."
- Samuel Clemens (Mark Twain)

"Faith is an absolutely marvelous tool.
With faith there is no question too big for even the smallest mind."
~ Rev. Donald Morgan

Or, of course, you could decide to stand side-by-side with a moron.

"Our priorities is our faith."
- President George W. Bush Greensboro, N.C., Oct. 10, 2000
_________________________
DA Morgan

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#10451 - 11/15/05 05:11 PM Re: Can we live in 'The Matrix' ?
Blacknad Offline
Superstar

Registered: 10/05/05
Posts: 901
Loc: Coventry, England
DA - You have long bemoaned the trolls polluting this science site with issues of religion. Now you have the excellent origins section, I suggest you post comments like this there.

But really, we will just have to agree to disagree. You are thoroughly entrenched in your position - so am I. Seems to be little point in discussing it.

You will just have to find contentment in insulting my intelligence when I post on scientific issues : )

Regards,

Blacknad.

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#10452 - 11/15/05 08:17 PM Re: Can we live in 'The Matrix' ?
Uncle Al Offline
Superstar

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 540
Loc: Southern California
Any model of reality other than empiricism (what you see is what exists) is religion. Religion is irrational faith. All religions are collections of dogmatic statements. Religion (insanely) derives support from visible contradiction - test of faith.

One Yahweh, a corporate board of breath mint-candy mint deities, 360 million gods, worship of animals or celestial bodies, postulation of Keebler elves, Santa Claus... and fashionable upgrades from Europe's ever-appearing Virgin Mary to space aliens and digital simulations... are crap. The universe doesn't care what you believe. It blindly proceeds by mathematical process, ignoring aphysical delusions.

Ignorance is educable, stupidity is forever. Stupidity should be lethal. Compassion is an evolutionarily stupid act committed by demagogues at others' expense.
_________________________
Uncle Al
http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/
(Toxic URL! Unsafe for children and most mammals)
http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/qz3.pdf

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#10453 - 11/15/05 09:52 PM Re: Can we live in 'The Matrix' ?
Blacknad Offline
Superstar

Registered: 10/05/05
Posts: 901
Loc: Coventry, England
Uncle Al,
What can I do? You won't leave it alone, whilst complaining that we religious types keep bringing up the subject.
This thread was maybe not to your liking, but it was an attempt to hear what others have to say about the inevitable arrival of VR proper and how it could possibly impact our lives.

I would say, however, that to discount anything outside of 'What you see exists' is at odds with most of humanities experience. It also strikes me as an article of blind faith in itself, not to say breathtakingly arrogant to become the arbiter of 'what is'.

Regards,

Blacknad.

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#10454 - 11/16/05 12:29 AM Re: Can we live in 'The Matrix' ?
jjw Offline
Superstar

Registered: 09/07/05
Posts: 636
Loc: USA
Hi Blacknad:

This Forum has a lot to offer even though there may be a few members that seek to dominate the topics, and at times the thoughts of others. I have learned to stay with it by taking note of what and where, and relax. I never thought that the ?matrix? was the equivalent of a religious concept. So now I/we know it is possible, for at least some to see it there.

As far as our merging with computers in any way at all I rely on the prospect that crime might be curtailed if we each had a tattoo hidden on us that would disclose our identity and the outcry that was broadcast of the invasion of our privacy. The futuristic suggestion of a micro chip imbedded in some inconspicuous body place to tell all was quickly equated to a Frankenstein monster idea. Soooo, who thinks we will ever make ornaments of computers?
jjw

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#10455 - 11/16/05 01:43 AM Re: Can we live in 'The Matrix' ?
Uncle Al Offline
Superstar

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 540
Loc: Southern California
[quote]inevitable arrival of VR proper and how it could possibly impact our lives.[/quite]
The major impact will be more pornography for the profits and more caterawauling by demagogues who demand to see all that pornography for free in the name of moral absolution.

http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/chiral.wrl
Cortona recommended as plug-in viewer

So it's a virtual reality molecule. What did you want, pornography? Can you find the RFID microchip in a US Postal Service coil of 100 first class stamps? How has that impacted your life?

VR. BFD.
_________________________
Uncle Al
http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/
(Toxic URL! Unsafe for children and most mammals)
http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/qz3.pdf

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#10456 - 12/12/05 05:31 AM Re: Can we live in 'The Matrix' ?
Kevin Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 12/11/05
Posts: 2
I would like to think that a VR world like The Matrix is possible.

Like the movie said, all of our senses are based on how we precieve electrical signals in our brain. I think it could be possible for us to make such signals replicated.

I don't know if they could just delete memories, but perhaps overwrite them.

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#10457 - 12/12/05 04:54 PM Re: Can we live in 'The Matrix' ?
DA Morgan Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
Our lives are, of course, possibly a dream.

But acting on that assumption is the equivalent of suicide.
_________________________
DA Morgan

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#10458 - 12/13/05 09:06 AM Re: Can we live in 'The Matrix' ?
Anonymous
Unregistered


I think we should first list down our perception of Machine.
What is a Machine ?
Is it a Piece of Junk with hard coded signals to perform.?
Is it possible to find a Matrix answer literally in the real 4-D world?
We know not.Unless we understand the significance of the Question Neo was looking for...It is the same answer which all the scientists are looking for.And it takes Real scientific brain to doubt the existence of event as it is seen.But somewhere the movie makes it more glamourous and little stupid.Movie also fails to portray the emotions of Neo who found himself in the hands of outside-Machine life.
How does a person feel when he finds all the answer he was looking for in his life?
A scientist goes crazy but in the Movie you dont find the Joy of knowing the True world. This goes against the basic assumption of knowning Neo as a better Science Student.Probably the cool calm environment the suited the pace of Movie in its initial phase. Eureka was missing.
If Eureka was not the aim then some other incentive should have been discussed.
There were many other problems with the Matrix Movie to be considered as an answer when discussed in the context of basic human desire and Machine defintion.

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#10459 - 12/15/05 04:58 AM Re: Can we live in 'The Matrix' ?
DA Morgan Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
Thanks dvk: Aren't drugs wonderful?
_________________________
DA Morgan

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#10460 - 12/15/05 05:38 AM Re: Can we live in 'The Matrix' ?
Anonymous
Unregistered


Morgan ,

What was that? Do you know we have multiple parallel answers to the same questions and we choose one of them when we react.
The concept of choice was beautifully depicted in the Movie.The movie is one of my favorites.
And I recommend it but one should not get carried away with all the imagination. Even there one can filter out the Truths.
Can you find more logical flaws in the Movie?
It will be a good excercise.

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#10461 - 12/15/05 12:32 PM Re: Can we live in 'The Matrix' ?
RM Offline
Superstar

Registered: 10/07/05
Posts: 560
Loc: London
Logical flaws in the movie? Take your pick!
First of all, the Matrix is a program right, well, unless the programmer programmed it so that if you don't believe in the laws they don't apply to you, there is no real reason why Neo should have his powers. Did the programmer do that? Please tell me.
Secondly, the way people bleed from their mouth in the real world is when they get shot in the matrix is ridiculous. It's physically impossible.

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#10462 - 12/16/05 12:05 AM Re: Can we live in 'The Matrix' ?
DA Morgan Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
dvk asks:
"Can you find more logical flaws in the Movie?

Of course not. Given enough LSD anyone can lose contact with reality. The operative phrase here is "lose contact with."
_________________________
DA Morgan

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#10463 - 12/16/05 05:53 AM Re: Can we live in 'The Matrix' ?
Anonymous
Unregistered


Logical flaws in the movie? Take your pick!
First of all, the Matrix is a program right, well, unless the programmer programmed it so that if you don't believe in the laws they don't apply to you, there is no real reason why Neo should have his powers. Did the programmer do that? Please tell me.
DKV: No he didnt do that intentionally according to the Movie it is the valid consequence of the method of programming.You say Neo was the side effect.
===========================================
Secondly, the way people bleed from their mouth in the real world is when they get shot in the matrix is ridiculous. It's physically impossible.
DKV: Its not all that impossible. Have you ever got frigthend to death in your dreams?
Havent you seen people dying because of shock without any actual physical event.Poisonless Snake Bite can kill most of us.Simply because body and mind believes in what it sees blindly and correlates it his or her understanding.Bleeding can be due extreme mental condition. Notice that a bullet shot is not reflected on the real body.

BTW, my problem is with the technology of Machines. They look inferior in every sense.
Second I dont see any real Incentive given to the 'saved' ones.
Third , With all the mind blowing stunts I do not see any real life protrayal of the less priviledged people.
Fourth ,All this is simply not possible using a Phone line.All the physical information can not travel in a Space Time without experiencing some loss unless the medium of Transmission is Quantified. Either whole of Neo should have gone or None.Which means Quantifying the Information content of Neo.
Thus the real question it asks is Can we Quatify Our Information in such way that it can transmitted using a Normal Telephone Line?

The movie adds more Information to Neo but fails to show the loss of Information.

Cheers

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#10464 - 12/25/05 09:02 PM Re: Can we live in 'The Matrix' ?
RM Offline
Superstar

Registered: 10/07/05
Posts: 560
Loc: London
Well, here's another one; when they're all having the conversation about why everything tastes like chicken -load of crap. I quote (not accurately) "Maybe they didn't know what to make everything tase like...and that's why everything tastes like chicken"
The reason things taste as they do is because of the chemicals in the thing in question.

Another flaw; why go in to the matrix and risk your neck when you can just program an army to do all the dirty work for you?

Yet another flaw; why do they give a damn if they are in the matrix? The real world in that film is crap.

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#10465 - 12/25/05 11:34 PM Re: Can we live in 'The Matrix' ?
Blacknad Offline
Superstar

Registered: 10/05/05
Posts: 901
Loc: Coventry, England
Another flaw; why go in to the matrix and risk your neck when you can just program an army to do all the dirty work for you?

REP: The army will be bound by logic. There was the idea in the film that no matter how strong the Agents were, they could be defeated by human intuition, creativity and logical unpredictability.

Regards,

Blacknad.

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#10466 - 12/26/05 01:16 AM Re: Can we live in 'The Matrix' ?
RM Offline
Superstar

Registered: 10/07/05
Posts: 560
Loc: London
but that's a load of crap. Garry Kasparov (chess champion) got beaten by deep blue (a computer) -twice I think.
Anyway, back to the matrix, such a good simulation would be able to replicate all that human intuition etc... there's really not that much to it.
Lo and behold, we have found yet another flaw in the movie!

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#10467 - 12/26/05 09:45 PM Re: Can we live in 'The Matrix' ?
RM Offline
Superstar

Registered: 10/07/05
Posts: 560
Loc: London
Another flaw; what's to say the so called 'real world' isn't the matrix and their matrix isn't a matrix within a matrix? Surely someone, somewhere should have thought of this.

P.S. I will stop posting flaws in the movie now.

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#10468 - 12/27/05 12:24 PM Re: Can we live in 'The Matrix' ?
Johan Offline
Member

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 35
Loc: Norway
Read the post "We exist in a computer program" at the origin board.

And yes, the matrix plug will become possible at one point. But none of us will ever experience it. Jump in the freezer for a couple of centuries.
_________________________
Johan VS

-Timing has a lot to do with the outcome of a raindance.

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#10469 - 12/31/05 03:59 PM Re: Can we live in 'The Matrix' ?
RM Offline
Superstar

Registered: 10/07/05
Posts: 560
Loc: London
we won't need a plug. see the sony are working on vr systems topic.

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#10470 - 01/07/06 11:27 PM Re: Can we live in 'The Matrix' ?
Bing Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 01/06/06
Posts: 9
Loc: Where No Man Has Gone Before
I think I actually agree with DA Morgan aka the "Crusher" on this one. The only way I could connect reality with the movie "The Matrix" is by visiting my local crack house.

Now where did my invisible purple rhino go ?

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#10471 - 01/08/06 03:23 PM Re: Can we live in 'The Matrix' ?
RM Offline
Superstar

Registered: 10/07/05
Posts: 560
Loc: London
I disagree with you. It makes nothing but sense to think that if the electronic pulses in our brain are manipulated in a certain way -using waves or some electronic device- we can have an alternative 'reality'. After all, isn't this what drugs do -mess around with the brains chemistry and in turn change the flow of electronic pulses? The difference is that with VR systems the mainpulation is controlled.

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