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#10053 - 12/15/05 05:24 AM Re: We exist in a computer program
Blacknad Offline
Superstar

Registered: 10/05/05
Posts: 901
Loc: Coventry, England
Jim,

I've not seen you post for a while.

You said - 'A computer, no matter how fast or how large is outside our consciousness and not capable of causing us to exist within in it.'

I don't really understand what you are saying here. I presume you have seen 'The Matrix'. When computers are fast enough and sophisticated enough, they certainly will be capable of projecting an emersive reality into our brain that could correlate with that of others who are also plugged in. You only need to look at any of the mmorpg's to see rudimentary versions of this.

Or have I misread you?

Regards,

Blacknad.

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#10054 - 12/15/05 02:25 PM Re: We exist in a computer program
TheFallibleFiend Offline
Megastar

Registered: 06/08/05
Posts: 1940
Loc: http://thefalliblefiend.blogsp...
Black, jjw, I think you're both committing the same mistake that Dennett makes in his book on consciousness.

The point is this:
Thinking of the movie Matrix is too simplistic.

If we are in a simulated world, the computers in this world are also simulated. The computers in our artificial world could have vastly inferior capabilities to the ones in the 'real' world. In fact, the laws of the real universe might have no more relation to 'our' (simulated) universe than the laws of cartoon physics have to Newton or Einstein.

Of course, I don't believe this. But beliefs are irrelevant to logical implication.

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#10055 - 12/15/05 02:45 PM Re: We exist in a computer program
Blacknad Offline
Superstar

Registered: 10/05/05
Posts: 901
Loc: Coventry, England
Hey!

I didn't make that second duplicate post.

Or is my signal to noise ratio such that instead of deleting my posts you are adding to them smile

Regards,

Blacknad.

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#10056 - 12/18/05 10:31 PM Re: We exist in a computer program
BELLATOR Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 11/20/05
Posts: 13
Loc: NYC
Quote:
Thinking of the movie Matrix is too simplistic.
It's a good point.

I have a suspicion that the plot includes the existence of a heretofore hidden "third" (or "fourth") layer of "reality" similarly depicted in the movie, The Thirteenth Floor. My theory is based on the scene (in the last film) in which Neo halts the seeker machines by raising his hand, as he did towards the end of the first film to stop the Agents' bullets. This curious and unexplained ability takes place in the "real world", i.e., not in the Matrix. How could Neo have special powers (contrary to the laws of physics) outside the Matrix? I hope they make another sequel which depicts a "third", superimposed "reality" demonstrating that the "real" world, as perceived by the humans, actually is another Matrix.

VB
_________________________
Nel mezzo del cammin di nostra vita mi ritrovai per una selva oscura, ch? la diritta via era smarrita. salimmo s?, el primo e io secondo tanto ch'i' vidi de le cose belle che porta 'l ciel, per un pertugio tondo. E quindi uscimmo a riveder le stelle.

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#10057 - 12/19/05 03:55 PM Re: We exist in a computer program
TheFallibleFiend Offline
Megastar

Registered: 06/08/05
Posts: 1940
Loc: http://thefalliblefiend.blogsp...
--
This curious and unexplained ability takes place in the "real world"
--

I agree. I noticed the same thing. I liked the series, though I detested the end. It was truly a let down. Probably it does hint at layers of "reality."

However, what I'm saying is this: the computers in whatever real world exists might be vastly more complicated and vastly more powerful than the computers in THIS reality. Therefore, I think Dennett's argument is wrong - and pretty blatantly so.

I'm not sure how to turn this kind of conversation away from philosophy and into science. How could we detect that our reality is not real?

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#10058 - 12/23/05 09:32 AM Re: We exist in a computer program
Anonymous
Unregistered


First we donot live in the Computational World in the Classical Sense.
Second we live in a finitely computable Space.
Third Computational Space has distributed computational strength.

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#10059 - 12/25/05 05:54 PM Re: We exist in a computer program
RM Offline
Superstar

Registered: 10/07/05
Posts: 560
Loc: London
Here's a good one: Say we do live in 'the matrix' and it was created by a species that thought it would be a really quick way to come up with good inventions because they could accelerate time in the program simulation that 'we' live in to way beyond their evolutionary stage and then steal our ideas. Say that we had the idea to do the exact same thing and make our own 'matrix'. I don't know a lot about computing, so I was wondering, would the computing power needed for the simulation double, or just stay the same, and would the simulation in the simulation work?

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#10060 - 12/26/05 05:27 AM Re: We exist in a computer program
Anonymous
Unregistered


I don't know a lot about computing, so I was wondering, would the computing power needed for the simulation double, or just stay the same, and would the simulation in the simulation work?
DKV:Very interesting question.But let me tell you there is no one outside Matrix waiting for you to save them.In the end you create , you live and you destroy or you liberate.

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#10061 - 12/26/05 09:53 PM Re: We exist in a computer program
BELLATOR Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 11/20/05
Posts: 13
Loc: NYC
Quote:
Originally posted by jjw004: I see us as a self contained unit... Too simple possibly?
Great science is always simple.
Quote:
Originally posted by Blacknad: When computers are fast enough and sophisticated enough, they certainly will be capable of projecting an emersive reality...
I assume you meant immersive (generating a three-dimensional image which appears to surround the user). I agree that an immersive reality easily could be projected on our consciousness through our senses. Yet, I wonder how fast and sophisticated computers would have to be before they could experience motivation, plans, goals, purpose, etc. necessary to instigate such behavior on their part.
Quote:
Originally posted by Rob: ... a species... could accelerate time in the program simulation that 'we' live in to way beyond their evolutionary stage and then steal our ideas...
I think that the aliens? simulation would be subject to their own technological speed limit. In other words, if they cannot generate such advanced ideas for themselves, no simulation which they create would be able to do so either.
Quote:
Originally posted by Rob:
Therefore, a true replica of the universe can never be made.
Assuming that someday man will develop and prove a TOE (I suppose I should say: The TOE), one can imagine that algorithms based on, inter alia, quantum theory sufficiently may explain the structure and operations of, um, everything, such that the necessity of creating a model of the Cosmos which includes the location and trajectory of each and every atom in all dimensions will be obviated. I don?t think so. Man?s mental life generated through his perceptive abilities and their focus has evolved in his particular environment including everything and everywhere that is, ever was, or ever will be. The chaotic chain of events which gave, or gives, (an ?arrow of time? issue) rise to the emergence of what is may or may not have a beginning or an end. It may or may not have followed a predictable path, have been guided by the nature of things, be infinite or finite, etc., etc. Perhaps man is and always will be incapable of building his nuts and bolts homologue. Man wasn?t there when the innumerous forces in the Cosmos seemingly indiscriminately formed, um, everything. To find, identify, understand, chronicle, and record every aspect of each of these forces, and their interrelationships, in detail, no matter how small, large, enduring, foreign, vague, etc., and to use the data to create a model indistinguishable from the present ?reality?, sounds tough.

VB
_________________________
Nel mezzo del cammin di nostra vita mi ritrovai per una selva oscura, ch? la diritta via era smarrita. salimmo s?, el primo e io secondo tanto ch'i' vidi de le cose belle che porta 'l ciel, per un pertugio tondo. E quindi uscimmo a riveder le stelle.

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#10062 - 12/26/05 10:21 PM Re: We exist in a computer program
RM Offline
Superstar

Registered: 10/07/05
Posts: 560
Loc: London
All adressed to BELLATOR:
"I think that the aliens? simulation would be subject to their own technological speed limit. In other words, if they cannot generate such advanced ideas for themselves, no simulation which they create would be able to do so either."

REP:
Step 1, they find out all the (needed and relative)rules that are present to create the universe we (they) experience. In other words they find a TOE.

Step 2, they turn this into a computer program, a simulation of the universe if you will

Step 3, say they have been evolving for 30000 years, they search through the universe simulation for a planet that can harbour life, and accelerate time in the simulation to say 50000000 years when the artificial organisms will have evolved into extremely intelligent beings. They then observe how these extremely intelligent life forms live, what they do, their technology etc... and copy it in the real world.

Regarding your REP to "Therefore, a true replica of the universe can never be made."...

Everything affects everything else. There is no way that a finite number of chips can simulate an infinite number of things happening -all at the same time. It may be able to simulate what's happening in one reigon of the universe, but it would have to pause calculations on any other reigons. Therefore the simulation would be inacurate because the other reigons affect the one in question. I might add, chaos would rule at the borders of these reigons.

P.S. How do you get italic script?

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#10063 - 12/27/05 12:20 PM Re: We exist in a computer program
Johan Offline
Member

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 35
Loc: Norway
This is off topic, but this is a well known dilemma. Our system of calculating has infinite negative and infinite postive numbers. It also has infinite numbers between 0 and 1, and between 1 and 2. But this isnt a problem. Creating a VR a programmer would have to make simplifications in the code, and especially in regards to limiting complexity.

Anyways, read calculus 1 and read the sections surrounding "lim".
_________________________
Johan VS

-Timing has a lot to do with the outcome of a raindance.

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#10064 - 12/28/05 12:18 PM Re: We exist in a computer program
TheFallibleFiend Offline
Megastar

Registered: 06/08/05
Posts: 1940
Loc: http://thefalliblefiend.blogsp...
"Creating a VR a programmer would have to make simplifications in the code, and especially in regards to limiting complexity."

I'm not sure I agree with this. It's not the "code" that is simplified, it's the underlying hardware. The code would need to be more complicated to deal with things like overflow, underflow, loss of precision, etc. I assume of course, that you're not referring to VR in the sense of, say, modern MMOGs, but in the sense of the matrix movie.

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#10065 - 12/29/05 09:47 AM Re: We exist in a computer program
Anonymous
Unregistered


Let me help you.
The Code or logical Packet(as I like to call it) has a relation with the Hardware.

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#10066 - 01/07/06 01:40 AM Re: We exist in a computer program
jjw Offline
Superstar

Registered: 09/07/05
Posts: 636
Loc: USA
Hi:

I know from past offers that TFF has computer science knowledge. I know there is great interest in the potential progress of computers and computer external control. What I do not know is why so many smart people would ponder a hypothetical Matrix involving live people?

There are unfortunates in captivity that have a very different picture of reality. They somehow gave birth to that illusion. we can not take them back to where we think they should be.

Whoose Matrix do we seek? Drugs will do a better job on us than computers and waste us faster.

I respect all. I simply do not fathom how you expect to get the world living in a computer program, no matter what the name is. You all sound very profound never-the-less.
jjw

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#10067 - 01/07/06 09:52 AM Re: We exist in a computer program
Anonymous
Unregistered


What I do not know is why so many smart people would ponder a hypothetical Matrix involving live people?
REP: Before I answer let us understand that the world is not Binary and hence the Matrix is also not like a typical simulation.
Smart people know that this understanding is crucial to their own existence...Every 10000 years a meteorite falls .. Every 100 years a new deadly disease reappears...
What if tomorrow a cross of Brid Flu and Aids appear with a longer dormant period.
What is the ultimate limit to the Lethal Smartness of death?And if the death is inevitable why are alive at the first place.Why not opt for a peaceful death instead of ruthless torture by rapists of soul.
==========================================
There are unfortunates in captivity that have a very different picture of reality. They somehow gave birth to that illusion. we can not take them back to where we think they should be.
REP:Illusion becomes real when some looses the job..:-))Who can provide you your kind of reality for ever? No one . Except you.
===========================================
Whoose Matrix do we seek? Drugs will do a better job on us than computers and waste us faster.
REP: You seek it or it seeks you. Drugs are not an answer for all seasons.
========================================
I respect all. I simply do not fathom how you expect to get the world living in a computer program, no matter what the name is. You all sound very profound never-the-less.
REP: Thanks but sadly Bill Gates can not give you this software .. nor can anyone .Except the Guru who can at best give you the clues to where you can find it.

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#10068 - 01/07/06 02:48 PM Re: We exist in a computer program
Blacknad Offline
Superstar

Registered: 10/05/05
Posts: 901
Loc: Coventry, England
Jim,

I don't believe that all of society will end up living within a VR program, but I know people who spend seemingly all of their waking hours playing in online games - see the following screenshots from Guild Wars to see how far these games have come - this game is immersive.

http://www.guildwars.com/gallery/gwscreenshots/gw060.html

http://www.guildwars.com/gallery/gwscreenshots/gw059.html

http://www.guildwars.com/gallery/gwscreenshots/gw032.html

http://www.guildwars.com/gallery/gwscreenshots/gw075.html

I have had the opportunity to explore this world a little and chat and adventure with other online players - it is an incredible experience and the world is beautiful and strangely hypnotic.

This is still exceptionally basic, and when you can actually plug into this, it will be highly addictive to many people.

But there will be other things to do, play at the Super-Bowl, go to war, be the president - complete with your very own America, be a god and create new worlds and of course...

?the big one - Become a Porn King - do whatever you want to any 'babe' in a consequence free environment, free of virtual HIV.

Maybe your thing is 'Super Torturer IV - get the Iraqi to spill his beans' or 'Power Rapist 2015' or 'Ethnic Cleanser version 1' or 'Homicide Hero - gain bonus points for the more inventive methods of murdering your co-workers'.

There will be an angle for almost everyone. For the house-bound, it will simply be the ability to spend time in a virtual community with others.

You will be able to buy virtual body upgrades and become more beautiful (it?s the Capitalists dream ? sell a million body upgrades and not actually use any raw materials, apart from the time you spent designing it).
You will have beautiful people in online communities that have all the appearance of models and playboys who will pull up next to you in the street and lean out of the window of their latest flying Ferrari, but being unable to escape their personalities, will still say things like 'The history and properties of concrete are more interesting than most people think - let me educate you....'

Jim, how will you resist its lure?

Regards,

Blacknad.

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#10069 - 01/07/06 09:16 PM Re: We exist in a computer program
RM Offline
Superstar

Registered: 10/07/05
Posts: 560
Loc: London
Creating a beliavable virtual world would be very difficult. Look at the world around you -It's extremely complex. Strangely enough, when you dream, you can see such complex things. This is one idea I was thinking of giving to sony who are working on VR systems; There is a part of the brain that differentiates between what is real and what is not, or part-S of the brain. (I got this info from newspaper so it's not that specific) They should find a way to stop this part of the brain, or alternatively put the brain in a 'dream state' so that basic graphics can be shown but the brain (I'm guessing) will do the rest of the work to make it seem real.

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#10070 - 01/08/06 11:27 PM Re: We exist in a computer program
jjw Offline
Superstar

Registered: 09/07/05
Posts: 636
Loc: USA
Blacknad:

Your description makes it sound like the ultimate game or an animated chat room with the words of the players comming from their mouth.

I think my problem is with "living" or "existing" in a computer program.
jjw

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#10071 - 01/11/06 01:41 AM Re: We exist in a computer program
Rusty Rockets Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/04/05
Posts: 175
Quote:
Originally posted by Rob:
Creating a beliavable virtual world would be very difficult.

They should find a way to stop this part of the brain, or alternatively put the brain in a 'dream state' so that basic graphics can be shown but the brain (I'm guessing) will do the rest of the work to make it seem real.
Seems to me there are already enough people walking around who cannot distinguish dreams from reality... wink

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#10072 - 01/11/06 08:06 AM Re: We exist in a computer program
Anonymous
Unregistered


I think my problem is with "living" or "existing" in a computer program.
Dkv:That depends on your understanding.How do you feel? I feel I am living and not-living.This follows from my understanding of I or the Self.
You can say that I was never Created thus I shall never Die.Therefore the question remains a superficial one as I am the Present , Present and only Present.

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