Originally posted by TheFallibleFiend:
There is a difference between a fact and theory. They are not the same things. I have said so on numerous occasions. I have also stated (in other fora) on numerous occasions that theories do not graduate from theories into facts. What I *have* said is that facts and theories are not mutually exclusive.
The logic I am using is analgous to saying that even integers and perfect squares are not the same, BUT they are not mutually exclusive sets. There *IS* overlap.
The entire thread is somewhat moot, however, because the debate has been framed by lying creationists. While most scientists probably consider evolution a fact, and while I (who am not a scientists) consider it a fact, it is doubtful that there is any public K-12 school in the US that teaches it as a fact, much less an "unquestionable fact."
This is almost certainly a flat-out lie, perpetuated by creationists who are typically short on their scholarship.
Well I'm not lying creationist. I'm not even a creationist. When I was an undergraduate, I debated a group of evangelachals who said that God hated my university because they taught evolution there. It was a good long debate, and I think may have convinced one or two of them they were incorrect. That was because I was patient and respectful.
I do however think that theory and fact are mutually exclusive. Using the definitions I'v shown here(Fact is an observation, Theory explains a set of facts) makes that clear(If Theories can be facts that leads to a circular meaningless definition of theory) Furthermore it makes communication much more clear; there seems to me to be a lot of confusion in trying to decide which theories are facts and which aren't. Earlier you stated that the greatest existing scientists consider evolution to be a fact. I think that is incorrect and it is more clear to state that the scientists consider evolution to be a very good theory. Creationist may respond with "it is only a theory." Then you explain to him what it means to consider something a good theory. Hopefully the argument continues.
