Originally Posted By: Blackholeinside
Orac, so some rather highly unlikely theory gets your full support, although I don't quite get the connection. If you accept Einstein's equivalence principle, so making Schwarzschild coordinates just as acceptable as any other, can you tell we just where what they say about what we observe (in our view) become unacceptable to you?


Originally Posted By: Blackholeinside
so some rather highly unlikely theory gets your full support.

What highly unlikely theory would that be?

Man you really don't get relativity at all do you. You understand QM even less smile

Your Schwarzschild coordinates are fine from that particular frame of reference and it will create a view that time stops. Take the infalling observer frame and time doesn't stop for him.

So we have a problem don't we, two observers see time doing different things and so what is layman normal to do is try and pick one and falsify the other. It's in our classical physics upbringing that we want one universal classical reality so one must be right and one wrong.

What Eistein realized is what if both are true, time both stops and doesn't stop depending on your frame of reference of motion thru spacetime. He realized it because he got the connection that forces like centripedal force arise from nowhere in a point in space. Someone outside a fast cornering car doesn't see or even realize the occupants inside are experiencing "G forces" as they corner fast. Reality is defined by a frame of reference not universally.

What Eistein realized was both can be true, time can stop in one frame of reference and not stop in another. Every ounce of your classical physics upbringing will fight that. However if you accept it you can quickly realize then that you can't say anything definitive about time from any classical frame of reference.

Once you do that you get the foundation of Quantum Mechanics and it has only one reference and only one reference which is time. So QM is all about time and space is simply a field that results play out in. So in many ways it is the exact reverse of normal classical physics there everything is about space and time is where results play out.

So in QM you can't stop time period .... it is simply not something that can be done. The energy that is vibrating in every point in space would blow up instantly and catastrophically ... bad very bad our friend instant rip appears.

So it's safe to assume QM doesn't break down at the event horizon on a black hole it should go cleanly thru the horizon. There isn't any direct interaction between gravity and QM and you wouldn't even be able to isolate the EH from within QM as there simply isn't anything to look for it would be boring and dull.

So QM sees the event horizon pretty much like the infalling observer reference frame in relativity nothing exciting.

What that means is from gravitational observers frame of reference they should see really weird things because time is stopping for them.

Originally Posted By: Blackholeinside
Is it just at the event horizon and is that because you just do not quite get how to handle infinities?

There are no infinities in QM reference frame at an event horizon that is what makes it interesting. It is fully defined your gravity frame of references are the ones with infinities. QM sees the EH in agreement with the infalling observer .... BORING.

Originally Posted By: Blackholeinside
You keep bringing up QM but it is just because QM breaks down that black holes form. In particular, the exclusion principle no longer holds sway.

a.) Some people think QM might break inside a black hole, many others would argue bad bad things will happen if that occured.
b.) If QM does break it's not going to at the event horizon you need far stronger force of gravity than at the EH to break QM. The breaking point for QM would be infintesimely close to a gravity singularity.

See the problem QM will work right thru the EH and about as close to the singularity if it exist as any theory we have.

You seem to accepted that QM is the only thing holding a neutron star from collapsing so you get some idea of the gravity forces it's capable of withstanding. Calculate the force of gravity at the event horizon of a solar mass black hole and compare it to the neutron star ... they aren't even in the same ballpark smile

What we end up with then is the full picture of a black hole which is compatible with both GR and QM and makes perfect sense.

The problem for you is that you can't do QM in Schwarzschild coordinates and you can guess why ... think what time is doing.

So we have time actually rolling smoothly thru the event horizon but from some gravity frames of reference it will look like time stops and that is perfectly expected.

For humour if you don't accept that .... time doesn't stop by a vote of 2 to 1 .... infalling observer and QM say no.

The lesson here is stopping time is possible in a frame of reference but for goodness sake don't think that reality is a universal truth and it actually stops universally. A quick check from another reference frame should quickly confirm that it hasn't stopped.

See and now when I tell you a photon from the big bang has been travelling for 12 Billion years in my reference frame and it has been travelling for 0 seconds in the photons reference frame should make sense. Except if I am right every brain cell in your classical head will rebel and say that can't be so you want one universal reality and time base and I can't help you.

Last edited by Orac; 08/28/15 04:11 PM.

I believe in "Evil, Bad, Ungodly fantasy science and maths", so I am undoubtedly wrong to you.