Thank you all. please excuse English spelling.

having different views on things is a very positive way of moving forward with any subject, but first any possible unmovable
axioms must be agreed.

1, We exist. (individual consciousness only certain) Descarte "I think therefor I am" etc.

2,For this discussion assume other people and this universe exists. Allowing for holographic universes etc. which in no way alters the discussion.

3, we can only look at things with the minds we have, any possibilities beyond our understanding are mute and can not help the discussion.

4,It follows that some thing made the universe exist to us.
(if that something has always been there or was in some way made by something else cannot be answered at present by science and is unimportant to the discussion)

5,There is either an intelligence involved in the universe or there is not.(this is not answerable by science and if one wants to do further research then you must move to the only possible clues to that answer. all of which are essential to try and answer the question. quantum, reincarnation, OBE,NDE UFO,miracles, healing all of which give clues to further possible understanding.

Anybody who does not wish to follow this course is saying I do not want an answer I am going to believe what I want with no evidence to support it of any kind. Of course they are free to do this and nobody should blame them as long as their beliefs do no harm to any one. but they should also accept that that point of view ends any useful further contribution they can make.

The human race in general has a strong archetype (Jung) belief in an afterlife and guiding influence. this is part of our makeup. We also have a very powerful conscience ethic. If you put these together you have "A good god" which many people rightly place there faith in. The benefits of believing in a good god are enormous both to the individual and society as a whole.

The problem always has been and still is that people also have a very strong following instinct (jungle days) that allows all kinds of religious manipulates, past and present to dupe good meaning people into following sects (mainline and obscure)into keeping religious leaders in an exulted position where they control people to there own ends.

The only religion anybody should follow is, never harm other people in any way, forgive as best you can. endeavor to increase wisdom. this covers everything all other rules and regulations are man made.

Because America and many other countries try to restrict access to the longing in people to move forward with there beliefs by ridiculing research into all metaphysical and meta personal research people are forced to follow the established religions which at least offer a feeling of peer acceptance. if all the areas described where opened to serious and accepted research, the only way of becoming wiser of the deep things in life would be opened and the world would be a much happier place.
people have an instinctive knowledge that Darwinism is of very minor concern to the overall picture and has no real bearing on the overall picture.

Scientist follow this head burying road for many reasons, peer pressure, financial backing which will not be given to those who try to follow an open path, arrogance. governments of nearly all colours try to keep people under there control by ridiculing any out of the norm research.

Darwinism and creationism (not the bible. creationism in any form) like most things is not a matter of one or the other Darwinism is a very minor side line to the matters being discussed and whether it is 10% correct or 20% correct is irrelevant.

It is the going round in circles arguing some minor topic (how many angels on a pin head) which keeps the human race from moving on to find out with every means possible, is there something more or not.(and not just blindly saying there is or there is not)

May I congratulate everybody for voting in your new president a forward looking seemingly not self serving man who if allowed can hopefully help better the entire world.

Last edited by georgewontfollow; 03/02/09 11:35 AM.