Originally Posted By: Ellis
I would have to suggest that in fact belief has to be subjective. I also feel that assuming a lack of belief would not allow for the experience of interconnectedness (!) is an unfounded conclusion. It is also unfounded to assume that everyone else has to experience everything for themselves in order for them to believe. I pointed out somewhere else on this site that I have never seen the Olympic Stadium in Beijing- but I believe it is there. There are millions of experiences and events that I have not experienced and many more that I may, but I do not deny their existence merely because I have not experienced them.

It is however impossible to be objective about such things as belief, without some proof of its reality. They are subjective, but to many people none the less real for that. TT- your universal perception is blindingly apparent to you, but it remains opaque to others who do not share your subjective beliefs. I feel it is possible to confuse belief with opinion when others are denied the possibility of their own ideas.

In the conversations that ensue with subjective belief systems it often seems necessary to come to agreement, but is it possible to understand a belief without studying it from different angles before one can come to agreement? Objectivity comes from looking at something from more than just belief.
What you seem to suggest in this conversation is that the absolute which I refer to, is a belief rather than something other, and so I understand your approach to separate what you call reality with what I call reality.
Obviously you believe the Olympic Stadium exists regardless of belief and regardless of whether you experience it or not.
However your subjective/objective (controlled) point of view is one that is insisting that more (people or mainstream media) substantiate the underlying principle of belief and manifest reality, be visible to the current state of psychic awareness to establish itself in accountability before one can accept it as more than just a belief of mine. This is kind of the approach of scientific repeatability.
This is understandable too. This is the way of the ego. To identify with what it can experience not only in ones self but in others.
The Olympic stadium has been subject to documentation and celebration on the written and broadcast media of radio and Television. To everyone it exists at the physical level of that kind of thinking.

The Absolute has not quite made its appearance into popularity because it cannot be contained in any measure of the media or social mores, it exists regardless of belief or subjective idealism and rationale. In order to approach it you have to withdraw the mind and senses from the outer world and go inside of it. One has to begin to explore the inside of themselves

Once one begins to dedicate their attention to it, there is all kinds of history to document not only the human experience of it, but the relationship of it to all beliefs and manifestations.
The history of the absolute in its relationship to conscious self awareness which is written in Vedic texts dating back some 2500 years and maintained as an oral tradition even before documentation, is the very foundation of Western or Christian spiritual teachings in being "Born Again" and teachings of Eastern spirituality and "Enlightenment."

Few have made the transition within each generation into the experience of the absolute due to the collective acceptance in relative belief that something only exists if there is proof and everyone can experience it at the same time. Or to put it simply because of the block in psychic awareness created by the EGO.
True objectivity removes the fear/difficulty from being open so that the experience can become manifest. Ego takes a position that something is difficult. This makes everything subjective rather than objective, so, if it (God/The Absolute) does not make itself apparent to prevent the ego from doubt and its relative thought streams that are relaying information back and forth from memory to the present experience of belief in reality, Ego will not budge from its current programing nor can it consider anything other than the current program.

Tho you would like the absolute to present itself so that it is not so difficult for you to give up your present beliefs to be open to something else, the universe does not, nor will it wait for you, it will continue as it always does without you and your beliefs to be cognizant of all that it is.

It patiently awaits the day when you make the choice to open yourself to more by dropping the disbelief or difficulty in acceptance so that your eyes open to see what has always been there. It is not the fault of God that you do not see or experience God, it is by the habit of your choice that you ignore God in disbelief.

Times are now supporting more and more awakening to the absolute through many teachings that have been resurrected from the past when they were dropped because they were believed to be superstition only. This is because there are more and more people in this generation than there has been in thousands of years who are awakening to the absolute. We are on the threshold of a new awakening in humanity and the refinement of religion that is the clearing of superstition and false perceptions of the ego from reality, to expose the underlying truth.

Whether you accept it or not will not change it anymore than the belief that the world was flat changed the fact that the earth as a sphere spins on its own axis in orbit around the Sun.

I'm sure when Columbus threatened to sail across the ocean without falling off the edge it made those who insisted on maintaining that the world was flat feel like they could not have their beliefs because he was thinking to go regardless of their beliefs. But truth eventually outlives such demands that false beliefs be left intact and egos not be threatened.
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I was addicted to the Hokey Pokey, but then I turned myself around!!