Originally Posted By: Ellis
But TT- what if enlightenment does not lead to the absolute/god but instead to the knowledge that there is no absolute/god, just a series, or even just one ,happy confluence of random chance/s and we, and our universe, are witnesses, or perhaps the products of that event. The destination of truth is often more surprising than we may have anticipated.


The "what if" comes from standing outside and trying to look in.
No one who has experienced it stands separate from another, nor experiences the universe as being random.
The universe is a reflection of consciousness and we project the nature of the universe individually and it seems as if we also do it en masse. But there is only One.
That is the reality of enlightenment. It is not subject to democracy it is the nature of consciousness.

We accept the laws of democracy but we often ignore the laws of nature, or project upon nature to try and fit it into the personal agenda. But eventually we will surrender to something greater than the personal agenda and the idea of being victim to a haphazard and random universe.

There is too much order within the universe to seriously follow the thought that such order is random.
The order is easily understood and experienced as the absolute.
It has been part and parcel to the nature of man since man first was.


Originally Posted By: Ellis

Plus-I think it's a cop-out for believers in one religion to endow the wise men of another with near beatitude within their own beliefs, galling though it may be to find that non-believers have previously and since come up with good ideas and arguments.!

Belief does not make something so. It doesn't matter what anyone says. First hand experience is the only thing that substantiates reality.
For those who believe this world is all there is. The reality of birth and death and the experience of just that. IT is real.

For those who experience more than that. Then that becomes real.

Within every age of man there have been guides born to lead humanity from the reality of shadows toward the reality of the light. Such men stand out as leaders of spirituality and they lead by living example.

They are not the Jim Bakers, the David Koresh's or the Jim Jone's. But people like Buddha and Jesus, who expand the way of life for humanity and have such an effect as to change the direction of living and belief for all mankind.
Regardless of belief everyone knows of Jesus whether they understand him, believe in him or not. The name resonates in the thoughts of reality as an example of truth and justice even if one believes it is a pipe dream. It was not the man who created the diverse dogma and skewed ideas of his teaching. It was the beliefs created around the followers and their ego.

The texts that were written before the appearance of these people and also prophesied these same people, speak of the nature of enlightenment and of how it would be exemplified by such people as were predicted by the prophets.

What irritates most about spirituality is the threat that exists within to the ego.
The nature of the ego is to suppress truth and spirituality for if it manifests, it means death to the way of life that is to be the victim to randomness, and to fear as a way of life.

It doesn't matter whether one believes in something that is true or not. If it is real it is true for all regardless of relative ideals and beliefs. That absolute reality has become a part of human discovery and has been experienced and shared in the personal teachings passed down from generation to generation from one enlightened soul to another.
Mainstream humanity simply does not take the time to seek these people or this truth out until they become bored with their need for instant gratification and their protective walls that they have built around them to actually ask or demand a better way of life for themselves and all of humanity.
They may stumble around in the dark out of habit trying to rearrange the same old habits for a short time, but eventually they come around and open themselves to the possibility by actually putting down everything they think is real.
Only then does the reality that seemed so transparent and unbelievable become so obvious and eternal.

The fact that it has been spoken of and taught throughout the written and spoken history of mankind and has lasted through the changing systems of belief and religion that have born and died through the ages is a kind of testimony to its everlasting nature.

It doesn't matter whether anyone believes in it or not, or who is glorified. It still remains the same.
The enlightened always speak of the glory within all men. It is only the ego that glorifies one man over another. But the glory that is spoken of is not relative to the accomplishments of man and any measure of material consequence, it is to the glory of spirit that can be brought forward into the material world, and that can only be determined by one who has themselves become enlightened.

Otherwise anyone can become a god. All you need is a television and a tribe of people who have never seen one and your a god.
Superstition is not a clear determination of Gods and reality.
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I was addicted to the Hokey Pokey, but then I turned myself around!!