Honest question deserving an honest answer from those of you who are parents. Why aren't you willing to let your child grow up with moral and ethical training, but not religious training, and let your child choose its own path? What are you afraid of? And why?
I grew up with no religious training.
At 16 I became a Christian after thinking they were mere objects of ridicule, because I had a powerful experience of God.
I spent my childhood often talking to an old Professor who lived in my street - he had slightly lost his marbles, but was an atheist par excellence. I was always fascinated by him and was always in awe of his knowledge on almost any subject you could mention. If I received any brain washing as a kid it was from him.
I also got in with hippy new age types at about the age of 15 - I used to get stoned with them and listen to their philosophy of life - reincarnation etc.
I was exposed to a few different things, but had a clear point where God revealed something of himself experientially.
No brain washing made me ready for this. I had rejected Christians as something to laugh at along with all of my mates who saw them as a way to get free camping holidays in Wales. We used to give them Hell and sit at the back of their meetings and just deride them and disrupt their stupid preaching. Not one of my friends became religious.
As for people growing up in the religion of their parents. Christianity has more ex Christians and atheists/agnostics brought up in Christian families than probably any other religion.
For instance, my daughter (nearly four) has been to church about eight times and I am very careful not to indoctrinate her. I want her to make a choice that is real - one way or another - and I will respect whatever that will be. I have to - I have to respect the autonomy and free will to choose that I believe God has given her. I will feel extremely uncomfortable if I have not given her room to think for herself, but luckily her completely secular education kindly provided by the state will do that for me.
Moderate Christianity does not brainwash. Fundamentalists of every type brainwash - they do it to help convince themselves of the truth of their position - they can brook no doubt.
Moderates know that doubt is a big part of their thinking.
What you need to know - because some of you live in America and experience a deep religious fundamentalism - is that moderate Christianity is a massive part of the religious landscape. Even in America it is huge - they are just not vocal so you don't see them. They are not a political force and do not cater to extremist views and are simply not interested in ramming their point of view down others throats. They simply try to 'love their neighbour' and show that there is an alternative way to live, other than being driven by the standard societal narratives which almost are always about being a good little consumer and striving to acquire material goods.
People here at SAGG talk often about the evil that religion has done. What about the massive good it does? What about all the Christians I know who?s lives are defined by wanting to serve the needs of those within their community, city or country? What about the millions who have modelled themselves upon Mother Teresa?
It is not scientific to have half a picture of anything - to only be prepared to see the aspects of religion that support a dislike and unease with it is hardly scientific and does not serve the truth.
Feel free to call us fools - Christ said you would. Feel free to call us deluded simpletons - it doesn?t matter. But please don?t always try and associate us with evil and ignore the good that is done in Christ?s name. Even the president of the American Humanist Association is prepared to admit that alongside the evils that have been done in its name, religion has been a force for good.
Now fundamentalists always see the negatives in those who are on the opposite sides of the spectrum of belief. Now let?s see who is going to respond purely in terms of negatives. I think I know who it will be
I have a very genuine respect and affection for you Dan and I am so glad I have had the privilege to get to know you and see you in person, but I do think that on this issue you also can brook no doubt and will not be prepared to accept that Christianity has done more good (often quietly, in the background) than it has done wrong. With two billion current adherents it does much good - how many of those two billion are involved in conflict today? How many are involved in burning or otherwise victimising others? The scientific way would be to try and get at the facts and work out the percentages.
But its easier to rely on quotes that are devoid of factual content or evidence to make a point.
Dan posts stuff like this all the time:
?Jefferson also wrote:
"I do not find in orthodox Christianity one redeeming feature."?
?James Monroe 5th President of the United States
"That diabolical, hell-conceived principle of persecution rages among some, and to their eternal infamy the clergy can furnish their quota of imps for such a business."
~ letter to William Bradford, January 24, 1774?
And this (not devoid of fact, but hardly a fair point):
?Interestingly enough the two most prominent Christians in the pantheon of the US's founding fathers were George Washington and Alexander Hamilton: Both military men. Perhaps there is something about the type of mind that enjoys war that also requires a justification for the horror they so relish.?
~ DA Morgan SAGG 29th December 2006
Dan, can you brook any doubt?
Blacknad.
