Quote:
Originally posted by DA Morgan:
Blacknad wrote:
"Empathy is not guilt."

My response:
http://eric.ed.gov/ERICWebPortal/Home.po...000b80044f1 1

Perhaps not but they are related.
How closely related? One is purely a matter of immediate perception ? the other is an after the fact event that requires thought & reflection.

Blacknad asks:
"Are we under the impression that every human trait has an evolutionary basis?"

No. We are under the impression that the underlying chemistry in the brain is the result of evolution. There is a difference.


If that is all you are saying then of course there is no disagreement, but that isn't all people here are saying. It is being said that guilt has an evolutionary function. I am simply saying that it is an emergent property of a complex brain.


So lets get to your questions:

Q1: What is the reason I find a sunset beautiful?

A1: Can't answer that question. What I can tell you is that there are places on this planet where sunset is associated with the onset of terror and evokes a very different set of emotions.

Q2: What is the reason I find anything beautiful besides the opposite sex?

A2: Because you associate it with the release of hormones in your brain such as oxytocin.


Oxytocin release may occur when I look at something I perceive as beautiful and that's fine, but why? Why does it release when I view a painting or listen to certain music or examine an intricate pattern in birds eye maple or read a stunning piece of literature? What advantage did that give me in evolutionary terms? All I am saying again is that why is there a movement to attribute all human traits to evolutionary development? I have seen it time and time again ? 'What is the reason we laugh? Ah there must have been an evolutionary benefit.'

Q3: What is the evolutionary drive to enjoy pornography?

A3: This is a family friendly web site. If you really don't know contact me off-line and I'll explain "the birds and the bees" to you. BTW: Not everyone enjoys pornography. Your assumption contains a basic fault.


Gosh ? you Americans are such prudes ;-) I may well PM you and ask you about the birds and the bees and see how you deal with that one :-) Of course you're right, not everyone enjoys pornography and men are far more likely to, as they respond to visual sexual stimuli more than women. But I was pointing out that enjoying pornography would seem to offer no evolutionary advantage and would hardly be selected for, and there is therefore no reason why it would survive as a trait. Therefore I feel that it has nothing to do with evolution, which backs up my point that not all human behaviour traits have a basis in evolution.

Q4: What is the evolutionary drive to make some people enjoy being spanked and experience pain

A4: I was hoping you'd ask this one. The human body finds mild pain pleasurable. One example is the fact that the exact same mechanisms are stimulated by capsicum (chili peppers) as by being burned by something very hot. When we can control the amount of nerve ending stimulation (different for different people) the end result is pleasure. I, for one, enjoy hot Thai, Mexican, and Indian food. Hot to the point that others would find it painful.

Q5: hy the crossover some people feel between pain and sexual pleasure?

A5: Just answered that one for you.


Have no issue with this. The question was not simply about the mechanism (I know why), but again was about the evolutionary basis or benefit of such a trait. I can't think of one.

Q6: What is the evolutionary basis for self-mutilation or suicide

A6: http://www.biopsychiatry.com/suifit.html
There are many more good references. This is
just the first one I found.


We don't see suicide in the animal kingdom ? it's unique to humans. If it arose as an evolutionary benefit then it came late if the theories are correct. People would have to have been sufficiently well advanced in terms of perception and reflection to realise they were of no benefit or even a hindrance to kin and then end their lives. It seems that evolution managed to function very well without suicide. Much suicide is due to existential angst. It seems to me that for some people life is simply too painful to continue with so they make a reasoned decision to opt out. It doesn't need an evolutionary driver.

It's one of those things that gets blurred for me. It could be either. A reasoned response to a life too full of pain, or a residual effect of an evolutionary advantage to remove your mouth from consuming valuable resources etc. It can fit either of them ? so why plump for an evolutionary reason ? it doesn't need it?

Evolution accounts for much but we should not make the mistake of believing it accounts for every complex behaviour found in a complex brain.

- I disagree. It is only via evolution that it is possible to construct something capable of such complexity.

Look at the evolution, for example, of thinking machines. The smartest ones are the ones capable of rewiring their own circuitry.


I think you are defending evolution ? but I am not attacking it.

Blacknad.