Soilguy - thanks for taking the time to respond,

I like the bold - I think I'm going to nick it smile

Anyway I only answered the question 'why can't you have it without the magic?'- I was not for one moment trying to suggest that any of this was a reason to believe.

You said - It is wrong to lie because the people around you learn that you are not trustworthy, and your word is devalued (rightfully) in comparison to that of others.

REP: You have given a reason why lying can have its downside - this is not a reason why it is wrong. In fact if you can lie and get away with it, there can be many advantages to lying.

The argument you are giving is a utilitarian one and unfortunately, without something or someone in authority, this is how all morality must be framed.

If we treat others with disrespect, and murder is the ultimate disrespect, we can expect to be treated no better. Humanity thrives on cooperation, and suffers otherwise. It's our nature.

REP: Again, this is a utilitarian argument. Accordingly, if I don't care how others will treat me if I murder, why then should I not murder. In fact if I am a dictator, and want to murder, what have I got to fear - my people probably already have no respect for me - but they fear me, which is good enough. Strength wins.

It may be true that humanity thrives on cooperation - but also many individuals throughout history have thrived by killing their competition. Why should they buy into your cooperation? And who gave you the right to force then to?

It's our nature.

REP: Countless murders would seem to say not. Even according to evolution, it is not within our nature to cooperate corporately, but only within our sub-group.

Are you saying you think it would be OK, if it were not for the threat of Eternal Punishment?

REP: Eternal punishment has nothing to do with it. I believe it is wrong because we are made in the creator's image and He has accorded value to us and told us what is in our best interests.

As I have stated elsewhere:

"In fact, if I were to believe that we are mere products of chance then I am rightly justified in believing that we are utterly without value. The universe knows not or cares not that we are here - and will know not or care not when we are gone. Nothing will regret humanity's passing, we will not be missed, and none of our achievements will remain."


Nothing. After all, it IS what I say, and nothing more. You are getting the point of view of someone who behaves morally, yet doesn't believe in a father-type God, and expects no afterlife. All I'm saying is that religion isn't required in order for a person to behave in a decent manner.

REP: I agree with you completely, although much of what we perceive as right or wrong has come out of a Judeo-Christian tradition. But I would add that authority IS required for you to be able to state that someone else's actions are wrong.

Plausible benefits for believing in the supernatural do not constitute, for me, a reason to believe in the supernatural.

REP: No, for me neither.

OK. I can agree that there is more than one pathway to moral behaviour.

REP: Once again I agree. But I do not think there is more than one pathway to define moral behaviour.

Regards,

Blacknad.